Alignment Question - Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil?

[RedTonic]

[MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] - So, you wouldn't think it's evil of someone to steal, say, a check written out to you that you'd endorsed and cash it? That's not just unlawful, it's plain wrong.

It's an evil action (and a mean-spirited one--it's definitely awful behavior and, yeah, not good etiquette--not etiquette at all).

 

[steeldragons]

@steeldragons - So, you wouldn't think it's evil of someone to steal, say, a check written out to you that you'd endorsed and cash it? That's not just unlawful, it's plain wrong.

It's an evil action (and a mean-spirited one--it's definitely awful behavior and, yeah, not good etiquette--not etiquette at all).

And here we go with "real world" situations applied to a fantasy world system of 9 ethical/moral structures.

By my fantasy definitions of alignment that I use in my game, then no. That is not, necessarily, an evil act.

Theft itself, is against-the-Law, non-Lawful...which is generally defined in the game as "Chaotic". In a system where the ethos of Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic each have a mores component, Good, Neutral, Evil, the theft being Chaotic does not automatically make it an "evil" act.

What would make it an "evil" act depends on the motivation of the thief...the reason why they stole it. Were they intentionally out to get/maligning me? Were they motivated by simple greed and it wouldn't matter whose check it was? Was it because the thief was penniless and needed to get bread to feed her family?

Do any of those things mitigate the fact that the theft is not Lawful? No.

They do effect the underlying intent of the situation, which again, by my definitions of Alignment in a fantasy world, would be the latter indicator of "good, neutral or evil."

You are correct, it is "wrong" in a fantasy world that upholds "Lawful" and "Good" to be the "right" thing. Stealing is "wrong"...it is against the Order of Law. Anything that is against Lawful or against Good is going to be viewed as "wrong" in that society...but being "wrong" may not necessarily be viewed as "Evil."

--SD

 

[ahayford]

The ends justify the means? If I murdered a streat urchin to take his food to feed my starving family is that an evil act? I don't think motivation here is an appropriate measure of what is good and evil. Good and evil is all about selfishness vs selflessness. I'd consider theft, in most situations to be a selfish, and thus evil act.

 

[RedTonic]

It's unfair to say that since the game takes place in a fantasy world, any reliance on real-world norms and mores is out the window. Unlawful conduct may not be evil conduct: sit-ins are an example. Likewise, evil conduct is not necessarily unlawful. Nevertheless, there are actions which are both evil and unlawful. I don't have any confusion on those points.

Stealing an article from a teammate because you're greedy/a jerk is evil. Obviously, some evil acts are more extreme than others, and in the grand scheme of things, petty theft is just that -- petty. But it's still wrong, not because it's against the law, but because it's wrong.

Defining everything in terms of your fantasy world is a little disingenuous when we're talking about a third party's experience, which I'm certain didn't take place in your game. If you're only using your personal game's definition of good/bad, lawful/unlawful, then that's nice, but you should peg out that disclaimer first so everyone knows that you're not working with the common understanding of these terms.

 

[Systole]

The ends justify the means? If I murdered a streat urchin to take his food to feed my starving family is that an evil act? I don't think motivation here is an appropriate measure of what is good and evil. Good and evil is all about selfishness vs selflessness. I'd consider theft, in most situations to be a selfish, and thus evil act.

It really is unfair to bring street urchins into the conversation. They're just so ... delicious. I mean, really, who wouldn't murder a street urchin to feed his family? A little sage, some salt, a nice bread-and-oyster stuffing, some fava beans and a nice chianti ....

Oh, wait ... murder a street urchin and steal his food. Never mind. I missed that part. Sorry, my bad. We're talking about stealing food. Misread that. So anyway, continue on with this week's debate about the nature of chaotic evil. It's ever so interesting and 100% different from last week's debate about the nature of chaotic evil.






Ugh, now I'm all hungry.

 

[steeldragons]

Unlawful conduct may not be evil conduct: sit-ins are an example. Likewise, evil conduct is not necessarily unlawful. Nevertheless, there are actions which are both evil and unlawful. I don't have any confusion on those points.

Excellent! So we are in agreement then.

Stealing an article from a teammate because you're greedy/a jerk is evil.

Well, again...no. It's greedy. It's jerky. From a player side of things, it is disruptive to the game...and jerky. That does not make it, in Alignment terms, "evil."

Obviously, some evil acts are more extreme than others, and in the grand scheme of things, petty theft is just that -- petty. But it's still wrong, not because it's against the law, but because it's wrong.

Aaaaand that would be my exit cue. "It's wrong because it's wrong" is not something I can reason with.

Defining everything in terms of your fantasy world is a little disingenuous when we're talking about a third party's experience, which I'm certain didn't take place in your game.

I'll take exception to that. There is/was nothing disingenuous about my responses. The OP was quite clear that he was coming from a place of lack of understanding on Alignment definitions and how they would be applied to the situation in game. And his DM, it sounded like, was just as misguided.

Passing on how I define and view alignment in my game is not "disingenuous" in the slightest.

If you're only using your personal game's definition of good/bad, lawful/unlawful, then that's nice, but you should peg out that disclaimer first so everyone knows that you're not working with the common understanding of these terms.

I believe I am working with very clear and commonly accepted definitions of Good and Evil, Lawful and Chaotic (and Neutrality) as befit their use in a 9-point Alignment system (note "Right" and "Wrong" do not have an axis of their own .

If you have "the common understanding of these terms" of which I am unaware, feel free to share them.

I daresay if there were such a thing it would save us all a lot of headaches. in-game debates and a LOT of posts...and probably a lot of paladins.

As always, have fun and happy "being right because its right" ;P
--SD

 

[Mad Hamish]

If stealing is evil how about killing and looting lizardfolk?

 

[saskganesh]

Never thought of, say, Robin Hood as someone chaotic evil before.

Maybe if he performed some valuable public services like eating street urchins he could be rehabilitated.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Never thought of, say, Robin Hood as someone chaotic evil before.

Maybe if he performed some valuable public services like eating street urchins he could be rehabilitated.

That's because, in the stories he only steals from characters that the audience thinks deserves it--- evil barons, fat priests etc...

The idea is, it's not evil if you do it to evil. Used to condone death penalty, torture, maiming, having people rot in prisons, etc etc. Or just the old "they are evil so lets go kill them all."

Now if you take this Robin fellow and have him rob travelers indiscriminately, and kill them if they refuse, you got yourself your typical CE bandit.

I'm not going to say stealing is evil because its evil, even if that's what all moral boils down to. As the holy book says "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others." Stealing usually hurts people, ergo stealing from innocents is evil. Note I use "innocent" very broadly here.

Stealing is not inherently Chaotic, while resenting authority is. Actually, the book says "legitimate" authority, which is kinda weird as what is legitimate or not is very subjective, I doubt chaotic characters view them as legitimate.. I digress.

Stealing is often unlawful as well, but not necessarily. LE bullies taking things from others because they are stronger and the society lets them are not acting Chaotic, while the CG that tries to impose his own vigilante justice is.

 

[SPECTRE666]

He is neither. Instead he is an asshat jerk that is abusing a green DM.