Now then... Back to the discussion at hand.
so lets hear it. (or provide a link to where it is on your site)
Sure thing.
[sblock]All character classes have a magic rating, which increases by level much like base attack bonus. For a multiclass character, add up the character’s magic ratings from each of her classes to find the character’s total magic rating.
For example, a Wiz 6/Rog 4 is treated as a 7th-level caster for determining the range, duration, and other effects of her spells. Her summon monster spells last for 7 rounds, her lightning bolts inflict 7d6 damage, she rolls 1d20+7 for dispel checks, caster level checks to overcome spell resistance, and so forth. She still doesn’t get 4th-level spells (as a normal 7th-level wizard would).
The following restrictions apply, however:
*Only the highest bonus is used.
*A character's effective caster level in any spellcasting class cannot be increased to more than three times the base value. For example, a Clr 15/Wiz 2 would normally gain 15 levels from his cleric side (so he would cast spells as a Wiz 17), but by this rule, he is limited to Wiz 6.
*A character's actual caster level in any spellcasting class cannot be increased to more than double the base value. For example, the Clr 15/Wiz 2 from above would gain two effective caster levels added to his cleric class and 1 actual level; he would add 4 effective caster levels to his wizard class, and 2 of those levels would be actual caster levels. So, in effect, he'd be a Clr 17/Wiz 4 with access to 7th level cleric spells and 2nd level wizard spells (as a Wiz 4).
*A magic rating gained from a class can't be added to that class - in this case, you use the next higher rating for the highest-level class. For example, a Clr 10/Wiz 8 would add 8 levels to the cleric, not 10.
*Each full-caster class (cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard) beyond the first applies a -1 penalty to all levels applied. For example, the Clr 10/Wiz 8 would actually add 7 effective levels (and 3 actual levels) to the cleric and 9 effective (and 3 actual) to the wizard.
To borrow Wulf's examples as checks:
Clr 1/Wiz 19 = 1 + 19
Clr 1 (2)/Wiz 19 (19)
Bbn 10/Clr 10 = Bbn 10/Clr 12 (11)
Wiz 10/Clr 10 = Wiz 19 (16)/Clr 19 (16)
Half the effective levels gained from the total magic rating are actual caster levels, the same as gained by certain PrCs, but they are added to the lowest class only (if there is more than one, these levels are added to all of them equally). A character's caster level in any spellcasting class cannot be increased to more than double the base value in this manner, however. For example, the above Clr 15/Wiz 2 would gain two effective caster levels added to his cleric class (but he wouldn't gain any new spells); he would gain 6 effective caster levels to his wizard class, and 2 of those levels would be actual caster levels. So, in effect, he'd be a Clr 18/Wiz 4 with access to 9th level cleric spells (as a Clr 17) and 2nd level wizard spells (as a Wiz 4).[/sblock]
You guys (Kerrick and Sylrae) are trying to get the best of both worlds without giving up anything in return. That's 2e multi-classing and you know it. That was changed specifically for 3.X. If you want to do it your way, incorporate the Gestalt class rules from UA.
No, I'm not doing 2E multiclassing. What I'm doing is like the
UA magic rating system, with some tweaks. A Ftr 10/Wiz 10 is not a Wiz 20 - his effective caster level is 12th, and he can cast up to L6 spells. This makes him slightly more effective, but not overpowered (though I must admit that this hasn't been playtested yet).
Now, we agree on the point that: a multiclassing PC shouldn't be as good in any of his classes as a straight-level PC of equal level (for instance, a Ftr 10/Rog 10 wouldn't sneak attack or remove traps as well as a rog 20, and he wouldn't have the combat ability of a Ftr 20).
However, it has been noted by many people, many times, over the last several years that multiclassing spellcasters get the shaft. There's even a
4-page thread on these very forums discussing this issue along with fixes, not to mention the system in Unearthed Arcana, so I think I can safely say that your argument to the contrary is at best misguided. Sure, the Ftr/Wiz gains combat ability to compensate for his lost spells... but his caster level is far too low to be effective against EL 20 creatures - they have SR in the 20s and 30s, saves high enough to easily avoid most of his spells (since he's only casting up to 5th level spells), and even if they do fail, the spells won't do a whole lot of damage.
The "power bump" that casters get when accessing a new spell level is compensated for by their lower BAB, HD, skills, feats and lack of class abilities (in the case of the Sorcerer and Wizard) and their limited number of times a day they can access those spells.
I think what Sylrae is saying is that
spell power increases exponentially - which it does. A L2 spell is roughly twice as powerful, relatively speaking, as a L1; a L3 is roughly twice as powerful as a L2, etc. Yes, the overall
class power is balanced by the low HD, BAB, and saves; but the reason a wizard will outclass a fighter at L20 is because of their spell power - combat power only increases linearly, so by L10 or so, a wizard will start to pull ahead in damage output.
It basically works out, the challenge is to equate what each of the factors are valued at in relation to other classes. A rogue's sneak attack could be comparable to a fighter's bonus feat, but how does it compare to a monk's slow fall or flurry of blows or a cleric's domain power or a druid's wild shape? That's the trick. If a value could be assigned to all class abilities, including spell casting and caster level, then it would be much easier to solve the multi-class issue.
UK's already done that, though he didn't write out all the values for each ability. He gives a guideline, though - compare the ability to a feat (which is valued at 0.2) and assign a value that way. He has total point ratings for all the classes; cleric, unsurprisingly, comes out on top followed by the druid and wizard (which are very close), then (a bit further down), the sorcerer, barbarian, ranger, bard, monk, paladin, rogue, and... guess who's at the bottom? The fighter.
This is all laid out in
v5 of his Challenge Ratings doc if you want to take a look. I find it very useful.
And another simple thing to fix this is adjust the save DC calculation of spells to be this:
10 + 1/2 caster level + ability mod
instead of
10 + spell level + ability mod
Its a subtle but notable difference and would make the Wiz8/Clc7 have the same base Save DCs as a 15th level single class caster.
If you allow caster levels from all caster classes to stack, sure. Not everyone does, though. I use 10 + 1/2 caster level + spell level, which makes stat-boosting items less important and spell level moreso.
). I made it so that people who are interested in posting new ideas or revising parts of the 3.5 system can come here and post, discuss, and revise in a polite and civilized manner. We're still part of ENWorld, and those rules still apply here - including the one about calling someone out. If you think someone's being rude or insulting, you should either talk to him in PMs or call in a moderator, not do it in public.
