D&D 5E Amazon: D&D at the start of 2018

[Parmandur]

I'm not really sure you can say that though.

After all 5e is far, far closer mechanically to 4e than it is to any other edition. Truncated skill lists, two step healing systems and non-magical healing, action economy, faster leveling, class rather than equipment being a primary source of PC power, DC calculations (5e is basically the 4e treadmill with the level adjustments removed) etc. Much of the mechanics of 4e made it into 5e. The primary difference being writing style, rather than substance.

Are they different games? Sure. I'll agree with that. But, trying to say that 5e isn't the direct child of 4e ignores a lot of what was developed during 4e.

It's as much 3E or 2E (whose math spread it essentially duplicates) as it is 4E.

 

[Hussar]

It's using 4E mechanics to duplicate older D&D playstyle.

That tactical grind was the real problem with 4E.

Oh, I'd agree with that. I certainly don't want to say that 5e is a clone of 4e. Obviously there are some differences. The speeding up of combat is a massive improvement, for one thing. No, I'd agree with you.

It's as much 3E or 2E (whose math spread it essentially duplicates) as it is 4E.

Really? Virtually none of the 2e mechanics exist in 5e. And 3e? Seriously?

Take grappling as a perfect example. In 3e, the grapple rules are a page long and quite complicated. The 2e grappling rules had a chart. The 4e grapple rules are a paragraph and the 5e rules are virtually a cut and paste of 4e.

What 3e mechanics are ported into 5e? I suppose you could argue the sorcerer's style of casting is probably a good one. And, of course, the calculations of stats is straight from 3e. But, other than that? Action economy is completely different, most of 3e's complexity is gone, the classes have been virtually rewritten, healing works differently, and never minding the wealth by level calculations baked into the system.

 

[Parmandur]

Oh, I'd agree with that. I certainly don't want to say that 5e is a clone of 4e. Obviously there are some differences. The speeding up of combat is a massive improvement, for one thing. No, I'd agree with you.



Really? Virtually none of the 2e mechanics exist in 5e. And 3e? Seriously?

Take grappling as a perfect example. In 3e, the grapple rules are a page long and quite complicated. The 2e grappling rules had a chart. The 4e grapple rules are a paragraph and the 5e rules are virtually a cut and paste of 4e.

What 3e mechanics are ported into 5e? I suppose you could argue the sorcerer's style of casting is probably a good one. And, of course, the calculations of stats is straight from 3e. But, other than that? Action economy is completely different, most of 3e's complexity is gone, the classes have been virtually rewritten, healing works differently, and never minding the wealth by level calculations baked into the system.

I mean, most of what made up 4E was the same part of 3E. I'm not going to argue that 5E isn't largely a result of learning from 4E's mistakes, but again, it is the "same game" as much as 5E and 4E are both the "same game" as 3E.

 

[Zardnaar]

5E took layout and the d20 mechanics from 3E. They got concepts from 2E and B/X.

Domains in concept from 3E as well.

 

[TerraDave]

Seriously?

As D&D has returned to the top seller at the retail level, retail sales of RPGs have grown dramatically. That is mostly D&D core books (there is really nothing else for it to be).

And all book buying has moved online. There are just fewer bookstores and amazon has seen huge growth. So D&D is selling well even though every other book in that top 100 is probably selling much more through amazon then 10 years ago.

 

[TerraDave]

Really? Virtually none of the 2e mechanics exist in 5e. And 3e? Seriously?

But 2e players can learn it more easily then 3e or 4e.

 

[GameOgre]

Its more or less what I am talking about lol. WTF is Klooge, Myspace and Friendstar are basically gone. Amazon was barely making a profit back then, IIRC 2004 was the 1st year they actually made money.

NZers do not use Ebay that much due to postage costs especially for books, it used to be cheap circa 2004 or so when you could buy books for a $1 or $2 and post them for $8. Now its more like $20.

I do buy some stuff off Amazon (1st time in 2004) especially when they do a free postage deal (which they have not done for years AFAIK), but there are other sites to get RPG books from. If I lived in America I wold buy a lot more of Amazon (paperbacks $8 here they are $25 (17 USD approx).

Amazon now is a lot bigger though. Imagine if it existed in 1981-83 and the golden age books could be purchased for half price (in an era with 90 million less Americans).

The main point is still that Americans and posters on sites in particular forget that they are in the minority. Most people do not post in online forums, most people do not use VTT and in 2004 that % would have been even smaller. Let alone 2000.

I mean what part of the following statement is untrue. 5E D&D is the 1st edition of D&D where a popular edition, social media, online gaming/shopping have converged for the 1st time. 4E is the only other edition you could really make that comparison to IMHO but the problems there were how unpopular the edition was. 3.5 was not that popular either, 3.0 was but that was 18 years ago when a lot of things were in their infancy or did not exist.

NZ has been behind in some ways ahead in others as companies often use us as a test market (not for D&D). For example we had electronic debit type cards late 80's and were very common by the mid 90's.

Hardcore gamers on PC were online gaming 1995 for the ultra hard core I suppose but for the masses it was more 2006 onwards with things like consoles connecting to TVs (PS3/Xbox 360) before it came a family thing from 2002 it was a hardcore thing with the Xbox. I was streaming things back in 2004 or so most people were not and it did not really become a thing for the majority until Netflix rolled around.

Hell it was around 10 years ago VTTs even started to be talked about on forums in any serious way and most of the D&D playerbase is not active on forums (I doubt 1% are).

5E doing well on Amazon? I'm fairly convinced that in America most D&D books are probably sold on Amazon. Hell I have bought them myself and paid the $20 postage and its still cheaper than getting them here in some cases.

I also would not get to excited though as the Amazon rankings are actually indicating that D&D sales are falling with the exception of the PHB. Its not doom and gloom of course just once you get outside the launch window of a product sales go down.

I think the issue is mostly with you. Well and myself and many many of us old rpg vets.

Most rpg gamers started playing D&D with 5E. Somewhere there is a article about it and the overwhelmingly huge numbers of new gamers in the hobby now.

I think most gamers now got introduced to rpg's by watching online videos for Gods sake! You and I and any of us from the old days are relegated to a very small minority. What used to be true for our hobby no longer is.

We no longer have much of a clue what the majority of rpg players are like!

My table is (mostly) the same as it's ever been other than a on again off again roll20 addiction. Mostly I even have the same people! So it's easy for me to think the dynamics are the same but it's just not he case.

Also every single one of my players are involved online in one form or another with rpg's. From message boards,discord chat groups to roll20 games and more....

Gone are the days of my DM's posting on message boards being my groups sole interaction on the net.

 

[ad_hoc]

But 2e players can learn it more easily then 3e or 4e.

Yeah, I've found that most of the rules questions or frustration with the rules on forums comes from 3e players.

I started with 2e and 5e just clicks with me.

The feel of the game feels more like 2e (and I presume older editions though I haven't played them) than 3e or 4e. Even though there is nothing called THAC0 in it.

 

[Hussar]

But 2e players can learn it more easily then 3e or 4e.

How do you figure?

Virtually none of the mechanics cross over. And, I mean nothing. A 2e character sheet and a 5e character sheet share nothing - the stats are calculated differently, the classes work completely differently, heck, you roll initiative completely differently.

How do you figure that a 2e player can learn 5e easier than a 3e or 4e player?

 

[Emerikol]

How do you figure?

Virtually none of the mechanics cross over. And, I mean nothing. A 2e character sheet and a 5e character sheet share nothing - the stats are calculated differently, the classes work completely differently, heck, you roll initiative completely differently.

How do you figure that a 2e player can learn 5e easier than a 3e or 4e player?

I think everything is class based exceptions design. 4e was too but it made everyone “feel” like a wizard complexity wise. 5e for me came so close to being a good fit that I sometimes think the few objectionable things they did put in were to deliberately get rid of guys like me.