Ampersand: Sneak Attack

[The Little Raven]

4 - Seems like AC is generally going to be lower than Reflex defense (see the extra abilities available in the one power, which is identical to the other except the one with more options targets Reflex instead of AC)

Only one power targets Reflex in the article, and that's it's only advantage, since it only bypasses armor to get a success strike.

All in all, this is lookin' pretty rockin'.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Flat hp=very, very good

Massive array of melee attacks that don't target AC: :\
I'm guessing that NPCs don't get such, or Defenders are going to have massive issues.
Attacks that force (lots) of movement: again, PC only or Defenders are going to *cry*.

If the above holds, any remaining whisper of a hope of NPC/PC transparency fades (and by that I mean making NPCs with PC rules). Forget NPC abilities that would break the game if PCs got them, the rogue abilities threaten to break the game if *NPCs* got them.

Melee PCs are never, ever, going to make a normal attack. But we kind of already knew that. As noted above, the int/skill thing is interesting. It wouldn't completely shock me if int gave skills, but from the full, rather than class, skill list.

Perhaps Defenders can use Combat Advantage outside of their turn when a enemy uses a movement ability/attack to stop them in their tracks or at the least damage them.

Perhaps the attacks that don't target AC means there is more then likely going to be the whole Defender-swashbuckler sooner or later.

 

[Intrope]

Wow! This is crunchtastic!!!



A little lower starting hp than I predicted, but my HP per level prediction was RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!

Who called flat hp per level and strikers getting 5 per level?? Huh? Me!! BAM!!

Note that that's Con SCORE not Modifier; they're getting (effectively) 22 + 2xCon Mod hit points, which is pretty nice! A heck of a lot more than before!

 

[Voss]

OK. Lots of crunch. Very good.

The class itself, and some observations.

Armor Training. Ouch. No options.

Weapons. Uh-huh. Thats a short list. I wondered how they would differentiate between the various weapons. This suggests that many went away. And... wow, color me displeased that a rogues melee options are daggers or shortswords. Light mace, club, sap, slashing weapons? I'll come back to this.

Class bonuses- interesting. Just reflex. So a first level rogue has a Bab of 0, Fort of 10 and Wil of 10. (maybe 1/11/11, I suppose) Hmm. Need to see more to know if this is good or bad.

Hit points. 12+Con score and then 5/level. Wow, good catch(es). Con score makes a big difference at level one, but no per level reins the hit points in a lot. Interesting. Caps out at around 60-70 at level 10, 110-120 at level 20, 160-170 at level 30.
Healing Surges- interesting. Wow, is Con important. Be nice to know for certain if this was per day. I suspect so, since 6+ per encounter would just be stupid. I wonder how much you get back...

Trained skills. 6 of 10, total. No int bonus. Initiative doesn't seem to be a skill, unless its covered under insight in some way (which I doubt since we see it on all the monster previews). I really, really dislike the fact that 2 are chosen for you, and yes, before any one else says it, it could be houseruled, but I dislike the design decision that (and the limited choices of weapons) implies. A rogue is a very limited definition now. Also, why are stealth and thievery listed again?

Build Options- not sure how I feel about this, it again, feels really limited. I think I see some of what will happen in PH II to X, however. (And martial [or whatever] power). Class X will get additional builds Y and Z.


Class Features-

First Strike. Ok. Good way to do this, I suppose. It implies that most people get no bonuses for winning initiative, however, which is potentially boring.

Rogue Tactics. Hmm. The builds again. I think the bonuses to powers are more significant than the base effects. Artful dodger (heh) looks like it ate mobility, unless things are going to stack excessively. The base bonus for brutality may come up more often, especially since there is that tumble power later.

Weapon talents- Ouch, even worse on the 'you will take the weapons we give you and like it' scale. daggers and shuriken, close combat is apparently what you're required to do. Crossbow if you need to snipe.

Sneak Attack- ouch. Damage curve is much lower than I thought strikers would have. (except at first and second level, where its significantly higher, with the powers and all, than 3e rogues can manage). And even if you do learn how to use more weapons, they don't qualify for use with this class feature. I'm not liking these developer imposed limitations. Reminds me too much of the 1e short list of things you are permitted to backstab with. On the upside, no stupid range limitation. Too bad you can't use bows... But, until we see more, I don't know that this damage is too low for 4e. A brute can really stack up some damage. weapon +str +dex +2d6 +str again on several of the at will and encounter powers, assuming he has combat advantage. That isn't bad. Its also notable that even if you can get multiple attacks, sneak attack is once per round.


Powers- Deft Strike
Move and attack is nice, partly when combined with a normal move action, or the tumble power, which effectively allows you to slip throw the front line and attack people in the back of the group. Essentially normal damage + dex. Pretty good for an at will power... not much point in attacking normally. the doubling normal damage [W] (explained in the paladin smite article) at 21 is... interesting. more so that it doesn't double at 11 and triple at 21. Essentially eats weapon finesse, by the way, as do most of these.

Piercing strike... took me a moment but, ooo, nice. A rogue never has to care about armor with at will attacks. Thats good.

Positioning strike. OK. Nice, but... shifting targets isn't provoking AoOs from your friends. Don't like the Dodger ability with <cha mod> squares. You can't do less? Eh. And why is it will defense? You can shift a giant easier than a wizard? Flavor wise, that seems wrong. And you must be using a light blade, which.. isn't going to help. You can't even do this bare-handed which really seems wrong.

Tumble-
this is good, mostly. If you can get a movement of 8, its *really* good, because then you never have to enter the threatened area of someone with no reach. If you have a movement of 4 or 5... not so good. Dwarves and halflings may lose out on one of the more interesting abilities.

Crimson Edge is just nasty, unless they make their save, afterwards, and then it doesn't matter. Its notable that by the wording, you still gain combat advantage even if you miss (missing just means half damage and no ongoing damage, which unless there is a caveat in the actual rules, doesn't include the combat advantage).


So, thoughts. Largely good crunch. I dislike the areas where the developers stepped in and made decrees (the short weapon and armor list, the light blade requirement for every melee attack, and pre-selecting two of your six skills for you.

Don't really like the lack of additional skills based on intelligence. It makes me wonder what INT is for. CON and DEX certainly have uses for everyone... And there don't seem to be any int based skills for the rogue. Guess what there dump stat is? Don't much care for that flavor either. While its fine to have rogues that aren't geniuses, I don't like they get absolutely *nothing* for being intelligent.

So apart from the devs intruding overmuch on character creation... I think I largely like the mechanics. I am intrigued by the possibility (with class training) of doing a Vlad Taltos type character, and I don't even think I have to ignore anything to do it. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to do a club wielding street thug with no training in stealth or locks & traps, and that does bother me. Especially with brutality being a class subrole...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Flat hp=very, very good

Massive array of melee attacks that don't target AC: :\
I'm guessing that NPCs don't get such, or Defenders are going to have massive issues.
Attacks that force (lots) of movement: again, PC only or Defenders are going to *cry*.

Alternately, Defenders might get powers that let them use their Armor Class instead of, or as a bonus to, other defenses.

Remember the bit about how Fighters can use Shields to deflect Area Attacks?

 

[Intrope]

- What is the difference between moving and shifting?

Shifting is the new 5' step, apparently.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Hit points. 12+Con score and then 5+Con MOD/level. Wow, good catch. Con score makes a big difference.

The preview says nothing about adding Con mod at every level. It just says "5 hp."

 

[mach1.9pants]

- What is the difference between moving and shifting?

I reckon shifting was 5 foot step. It can now be more than 5 feet/one square; but the main thing it doesn't provoke AoO. Thus if you shift some one they are not subject to a pasting from your fellows and if you shift yourself (hello, rogue to get into a flanking position) you can do it without fear of AoO (or whatever they call em).
Thus the Tumble power is the same as using tumble to avoid AoO's in 3E. However instead of a roll to see if you get it to work it is a once per encounter only power.

 

[Voss]

Dollars to donuts says that [W] is weapon dmg - playtest reports confirm that weapon damage is still expressed in dice of different sizes, so 1[W] = standard weapon dmg dice, 2[W] = double dmg dice, etc.

[W] was explained in the paladin smites article. Its all your normal damage. Damage die +str bonus +1/2 level bonus +weapon bonus. So its quite a bit, and scales with level.

 

[Voss]

The preview says nothing about adding Con mod at every level. It just says "5 hp."

Whooops, so it does. Huh. That reins in hit points a lot. So a level 30 rogue is going to have about 170 odd hit points. Thats... interesting. I might like the lower absurdity.