I would go as far to say that if a certain percentage of players become game-wrecking maniacs if they write "Evil" on their character sheet, the problem is with the players more than the character sheets. (Doesn't mean its not a legitmate problem, but instead of saying "I won't run/play Evil games," I say, "I prefer not to play with game-wrecking maniacs.")
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An Evil party... Troublesome?
- Thread starter Zachariah
- Start date
robberbaron
First Post
I see Belkar as NE, i.e., selfish.
My players play good characters and they play evil ones. When they are being evil they don't play that much differently from the way they play good.
The one who creates generally ineffective characters is still generally ineffective, the greedy powergamers still powergame greedily, the wierdo still creates characters with odd (and, sometimes, disconcerting) motivations.
They argue about as much, though perhaps with a little more aggression when being evil.
The biggest difference is that I have to dangle a carrot to get the evil characters moving. If they were good I could probably hold a stick over someone else and they'd get going.
My players play good characters and they play evil ones. When they are being evil they don't play that much differently from the way they play good.
The one who creates generally ineffective characters is still generally ineffective, the greedy powergamers still powergame greedily, the wierdo still creates characters with odd (and, sometimes, disconcerting) motivations.
They argue about as much, though perhaps with a little more aggression when being evil.
The biggest difference is that I have to dangle a carrot to get the evil characters moving. If they were good I could probably hold a stick over someone else and they'd get going.
Ace32
Explorer
While I have no direct experience running a full campaign with an evil party, I did have a really good time running a one-shot (that lasted over 12 hours.. oi) for one.
The premise was simple: each character had acquired a magical token necessary to unlock a crypt containing a lost artifact. All of the characters wanted to possess the artifact (I had also mentioned that the player that won it would get to use it in our next Fields of Blood game...) and therefore had sufficient motivation to work together to get to the artifact.
What followed was a long dungeon crawl with various challenges as per typical D&Ding. The characters were definitely evil - they spared no thoughts to using devastating magic on their enemies, threatening eachother to keep the party in line, and whatnot. They also made sure they everybody knew exactly why they were useful to keep around (or stayed quiet and avoided rocking the boat).
Short of one messy encounter in which the priest killed the rogue (the two had been bickering through the entire session and the priest eventually decided the rogue had outlived his usefulness - and the rest of the party concurred. This did not occur until the rogue's player had to leave the game anyways...), the entire party reached the final chamber which held the artifact.
The chamber itself was a massive sphere with a platform running through the middle (think cerebro from the X-Men movie) on which stood a locked stone pedestal containing the artifact. The entire lower part of the sphere was filled with skeletons who came to life as the party entered the sphere. At this point, each player was attempting to both figure out how to open the pedestal AND how to be as close to the artifact and the exit route as possible (5' wide catwalk that was about 30 feet from them). They worked together to try to keep the skeletons at bay while throwing out ideas to break the lock...
Finally, they opened the pedestal and all hell broke loose. The party fighter was pulled into the skeleton pit by the monsters - and left to die. The warlock grabbed the artifact and tried to slide underneath the pit so he could spiderwalk his way out, but fell in. The cleric began dominating skeletons to block the exit. The bard raced to the exit to block it. Eventually, the priest was hold personed. The warlock evaded the bard and spiderclimbed his way into some tunnels above the dungeon. He got away with the artifact.
Everybody enjoyed themselves (even if they were a bit bitter about the outcome...)
The premise was simple: each character had acquired a magical token necessary to unlock a crypt containing a lost artifact. All of the characters wanted to possess the artifact (I had also mentioned that the player that won it would get to use it in our next Fields of Blood game...) and therefore had sufficient motivation to work together to get to the artifact.
What followed was a long dungeon crawl with various challenges as per typical D&Ding. The characters were definitely evil - they spared no thoughts to using devastating magic on their enemies, threatening eachother to keep the party in line, and whatnot. They also made sure they everybody knew exactly why they were useful to keep around (or stayed quiet and avoided rocking the boat).
Short of one messy encounter in which the priest killed the rogue (the two had been bickering through the entire session and the priest eventually decided the rogue had outlived his usefulness - and the rest of the party concurred. This did not occur until the rogue's player had to leave the game anyways...), the entire party reached the final chamber which held the artifact.
The chamber itself was a massive sphere with a platform running through the middle (think cerebro from the X-Men movie) on which stood a locked stone pedestal containing the artifact. The entire lower part of the sphere was filled with skeletons who came to life as the party entered the sphere. At this point, each player was attempting to both figure out how to open the pedestal AND how to be as close to the artifact and the exit route as possible (5' wide catwalk that was about 30 feet from them). They worked together to try to keep the skeletons at bay while throwing out ideas to break the lock...
Finally, they opened the pedestal and all hell broke loose. The party fighter was pulled into the skeleton pit by the monsters - and left to die. The warlock grabbed the artifact and tried to slide underneath the pit so he could spiderwalk his way out, but fell in. The cleric began dominating skeletons to block the exit. The bard raced to the exit to block it. Eventually, the priest was hold personed. The warlock evaded the bard and spiderclimbed his way into some tunnels above the dungeon. He got away with the artifact.
Everybody enjoyed themselves (even if they were a bit bitter about the outcome...)
roguerouge
First Post
Alternatively, you could have the characters try on a Helm of Opposite Alignment.
See this thread, especially my post on the Dirty Dozen 2 towards the end:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3659261#post3659261
Ignore the stuff about chickens if you don't like jokey campaigns, though....
See this thread, especially my post on the Dirty Dozen 2 towards the end:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3659261#post3659261
Ignore the stuff about chickens if you don't like jokey campaigns, though....
pallandrome
First Post
See, some people play their alignments, pure and simple. I'm one of those people. I joined an evil campaign, and played LN so I would not feel compelled to off the other characters for personal gain. I also stated, before I even sat at the table for the first time, that if any of the players broke their contract with me, I would off them. I made certain with all the players, and the GM, that my character was well known for this trait.
Sure enough, three games in one of the other players stole from me, breaking the contract. So I threw her off a cliff to her death. I feel no shame in this, because I feel that if someone in an evil campaign provokes another evil character, they get what they get.
This about it like this: if someone playing a 1st level paladin was incredibly insulting to a great red wyrm NPC that they weren't supposed to fight for another 17-18 levels, should the GM have the dragon off him?
Sure enough, three games in one of the other players stole from me, breaking the contract. So I threw her off a cliff to her death. I feel no shame in this, because I feel that if someone in an evil campaign provokes another evil character, they get what they get.
This about it like this: if someone playing a 1st level paladin was incredibly insulting to a great red wyrm NPC that they weren't supposed to fight for another 17-18 levels, should the GM have the dragon off him?
William drake
First Post
Zachariah said:
Yes....
You must set it up so that they HAVE to work together. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend...atleast for now.) Make it so that they have to work together, let them know that time and time agian in game. Like "well, if you don't save him, he can't get you in the room with the bla bla that you want...." or "well, if you don't help him, he won't beable to use that bla bla when you need it later against_____" They should always see the reasons for working together, even if they don't always like it.
The other thing, if they start plotting against each other while the game is going on, hurt them. Let them know that by trying to backstab eachother while this is going on, will only make the enemy stronger.
I had alot of fun one time with a party of evil characters who were banding together to rid themselves of the local good guys. Once it was over, the party turned against each other in a final fight. It was great.
Later.
robberbaron
First Post
Now, this is the kind of thing that would really piss me off as DM. I work to put the game together and then some player decides to be a nob and have a go at his companions 'because he's evil'.pallandrome said:
Evil doesn't mean stupid or uncontrolled or psychopathic. OK, maybe it does in your game.
We have a couple of teenagers in our group and they stop just short of pulling this sort of crap.
Was the DM laughing his ass off at this display of solo-play within a group or shaking his head in disbelief? Did anyone at the table notice?
And, yes, the dragon would eat him, starting with the feet.
Li Shenron
Legend
Ace32 said:
If everybody agrees, an adventure like yours can be really fun.
But it is also an example that it couldn't have easily continued after that fun fight. In fact it didn't... it was a one-shot adventure.
pallandrome said:
How is murdering the person who picked your pocket LN behavior? The lawful side of your alignment should have called for a more reasonable punishment (as there was no justice at all in your punishment). Murder is an evil act. Your character's actions were definitely CE in my opinion (at least during that situation). The fact that you have a "contract" does not excuse your behavior. Your comment "if someone in an evil campaign provokes another evil character, they get what they get" suggests that your PC should probably be evil anyway.
I never run evil campaigns, and I never will. I'm not comfortable running an evil campaign. To me, D&D isn't simply about role-playing a character. It's about good vanquishing evil. It's about heroes doing the right thing for the good of all, not about taking on the role of an evil person. On top of that, isn't there already enough of a stigma surrounding D&D? Frankly, I'd feel like a total jerk telling someone I run an evil campaign. I'd feel like a jerk lying about it, too.
I also think that the idea of evil PCs being friends is ridiculous. Truly evil PCs would not be friends with one another. In other words, a PC that is properly role-played as evil would not make sacrifices for the good of another PC, would not trust any of the other PCs, and would always be looking for a way to use the other PCs for his/her own personal gain. Even a group of evil siblings adventuring together would not be friends in the sense many are describing. A group of evil PCs who are friends with each other and care about each other (in the way that I care about my brother and/or my friends) are simply not evil. The letters "LE" or "NE" or "CE" might be penciled in on that player's character sheet, but that's about as evil as things are going to get.
With that in mind, the idea of an evil campaign irks me because players should understand that the only things motivating the PCs (the only things motivating the entire campaign) are greed and fear:
Greed in that everyone wants power, so what's going to happen when the dragon is killed and two PCs start fighting over who wields the vorpal sword in the pile... and how long is the PC who claims the sword going to live? Not only that, but how long is it going to be before the party wizard or cleric gains access to spells powerful enough to cow the entire party into submission? One might say, "Well, that won't happen at my table," but how couldn't it? We're talking about evil people here. If the above situation (or something similar) isn't happening at the table... Well, guess what? You're not running an evil campaign.
Fear in that the only thing stopping one PC from offing the other is the fear of death. Then we have players rolling up PCs with the intention of defending themselves from (or outright attacking) other PCs. I don't want my players thinking like that at the table. Evil PCs should always be looking for ways to get one over on the other PCs, and I can't have my players functioning like that. That's not the atmosphere I want at my table.
People in the real world are capable of good and/or evil from one moment to the next. In D&D, alignment is fixed and acts as a guideline for PC behavior. A LE, NE, or CE PC exhibiting genuine compassion, caring, kindness, sacrifice, and/or love should have his/her alignment changed by the DM.
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Kestrel
Explorer
As far as an evil party's motivations go, just pretend you're playing Shadowrun. Everything they do has a cost or benefit to them. If they won't drive the game with thier own devious plots, just have a crime boss say, "Go whack this tribe of elves, they are causing problems with shipments of my "merchandise". (With appropriate Jersey accent of course). "I'll pay you 5000gp when the job is done."
Or..."This uppity sheriff of UppityGood Village is causing me problems. I want you to whack him, his family, and tell me when his house is burned down so I can go piss on the ashes"
The adventures are endless. Just watch any TV show on the air today (Or just ended) and watch the bad guys.
Or..."This uppity sheriff of UppityGood Village is causing me problems. I want you to whack him, his family, and tell me when his house is burned down so I can go piss on the ashes"
The adventures are endless. Just watch any TV show on the air today (Or just ended) and watch the bad guys.
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