D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
...you're missing the point. WotC explicitly said they will try to be more culturally sensitive with their products, and therefore it's hypocritical of them to continue to make money off a book like OA. whether or not they remove it what matters is they, the company who owns the rights to it, no longer make money from it.

That is disingenuous, as that is not the point.

The original tweeter explicitly (emphasis as in yours) became more agitated when the price was lowered (therefore, less profits).

And, when someone said that it should not longer be sold at all, and instead be free (NO PROFIT AT ALL), Mr. Kwan was completely incensed:

"You think making a racist product even more accessible is better than removing it?"

In other words, despite the people claiming falsely that this is not a call for a ban, this is, in fact, exactly what is desired.

This point has been made repeatedly, in multiple threads. Now, if you are in favor of banning (removing something completely) a historical product that now causes offense, that is fine. At least own it.
 

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Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
That is disingenuous, as that is not the point.

The original tweeter explicitly (emphasis as in yours) became more agitated when the price was lowered (therefore, less profits).

And, when someone said that it should not longer be sold at all, and instead be free (NO PROFIT AT ALL), Mr. Kwan was completely incensed:

"You think making a racist product even more accessible is better than removing it?"

In other words, despite the people claiming falsely that this is not a call for a ban, this is, in fact, exactly what is desired.

This point has been made repeatedly, in multiple threads. Now, if you are in favor of banning (removing something completely) a historical product that now causes offense, that is fine. At least own it.
okay fine, then remove it. I disagree with him on this point, but I still stand by the idea that WotC shouldn't be making money from this book.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
Some pointed out that Masataka Ohta, Akira Saito, Hiroyasu Kurose, Takafumi Sakurai, and Yuka Tate-ishi were those who were involved with critiquing and even writing part of the original Oriental Adventures, and in fact, are some of the ONLY credited Asian individuals to EVER be credited on ANY OFFICIAL D&D release for direct contributions (apologies if I didn't get the names exactly right, I tried spelling them correctly, I apologize if I made any mistakes on it).

I think that's an important thing to note, but we also need to be careful with this. It's similar with the whole, "But Hattie McDaniel won an Oscar for Gone With the Wind, so we are really honoring her, right?"

I think you have an interesting and nuanced point, and it gets to a fundamental issue that is often ignored; who gets to speak for a community? In the past threads, we have seen Asian, and Asian-American, gamers say that they have (or have not) felt some, none, or a lot of offense.

Is the relevant community the Asian community, whose culture is being appropriated? If so, is it a mistake to say all Asians and fall into the same Orientalism trap that the book does (given that, for example, Korean culture and Indian culture is not being appropriated). Or is this really about the offense to Asian-Americans, given the primary market and the issues of discrimination in the West, which are very different than, say, issues of discrimination in Asia (in other words, there are different issues in Japan than America, as it should go without saying).

I say that not to engage in "whataboutism." Americans are familiar with a certain Washington football team that spent money and sponsored ... well, interesting and divisive polls in an attempt to say that a racist name wasn't really racist to the relevant community!

Instead, it's only to note that these issues can be complicated.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
okay fine, then remove it. I disagree with him on this point, but I still stand by the idea that WotC shouldn't be making money from this book.

The marginal amount of money the Hasbro, as an entity, makes on this is approximately zero; it's less than a rounding error. Do you support the removal (ban) of the rest of the products from the 70s and the 80s as soon as someone gets around to reading them and realizes what they contain? You know about the misogyny, racism, and colonialism, right?

Are you in favor of the removal (ban) of HP Lovecraft? Conan stories? Tolkien? Star Trek, TOS (which models imperialism)?

EDIT: Finally, what is your threshold for this? One tweet? One tweet and a long and rambling podcast?
 

Thanks for posting, I think it's a worthy contribution to the debate.



This is something to bear in mind when people say things like "I've never had any complaints". I think often members of groups that face discrimination choose not to complain about discriminatory behaviour for a wide number of reasons. That doesn't mean the behaviour is not a problem.
Cannot be overstated. Asian friends are raised to be quiet. To not make scenes. To keep their head down and work hard. To be model citizens. Even when abused. Even when questioned about their origins. And their allegiance.
Just because they do not complain much. Does not mean they have no complaints. Or they do not get hurt by it.
Keep that in mind.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
Cannot be overstated. Asian friends are raised to be quiet. To not make scenes. To keep their head down and work hard. To be model citizens. Even when abused. Even when questioned about their origins. And their allegiance.
Just because they do not complain much. Does not mean they have no complaints. Or they do not get hurt by it.
Keep that in mind.
man, my mom is fairly Americanized (she moved here when she was only eight), but yeah even I remember her always telling me, a loud person, that the loudest person will get blamed.

actually now that I think about it, my loudness was always an issue of contention, but that was more a personal than cultural thing, anyway....
 

dave2008

Legend
So basically you are not allowed to use fantasy in a fantasy RPG (number 5).
And when only Asian humans are allowed to use Asian themed classes in game the next step will be that only real life ethnic Asians are allowed to play those Asian humans as someone else playing them would also be white washing/cultural approbation
Ya, that was not my perspective of that post at all.
 


Sadras

Legend
...you're missing the point. WotC explicitly said they will try to be more culturally sensitive with their products, and therefore it's hypocritical of them to continue to make money off a book like OA. whether or not they remove it what matters is they, the company who owns the rights to it, no longer make money from it.

Argument 1
Why?
Because it is offensive.
To who?
A monetizing youtuber and some Asians
So not all Asians?
No, but they have been brought up to grin and bear it.
So their opinions on this matter are false or disinegenous?

Argument 2
Why?
Because it is offensive.
To who?
A monetizing youtuber and some Asians
So not all Asians?
Yes, but does it matter. It is deemed offensive and D&D needs to be inclusive.
Ok. How many people must be offended before something requires removal or ammendments?

EDIT:
Argument 3
Why?
Because it is cultural appropriation -a commercial power dymanic.
You do realise that the entire population of China ALONE far exceeds the sum of the populations of Europe, USA, Canada and Australia and that China is viewed as an economic powerhouse.
 
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