Rokes
First Post
Stop that! Get back to work! That book needs to be in my hands in less(?) than two months!
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The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
another rpg industry doomsday article (merged: all 3 "Mishler Rant" threads)
- Thread starter ggroy
- Start date
Stop that! Get back to work! That book needs to be in my hands in less(?) than two months!
thecasualoblivion
First Post
I end up arguing with you a lot, so I'll keep this short and sweet:
What? RPGs are durable, and outside of new editions don't need to be replaced. They may indeed be time resistant, but a time resistant durable product is a bad business model. If the gaming companies can't profit, we aren't going to have as high a quality product as we would if they could. In other words, they can but they shouldn't.
I'd like to dispel at least one misconception that I've seen repeated a few times in this discussion: the whole "PDF as Loss Leader" thing.
PDFs, regardless of price, are no more a "loss leader" for the print version of a game product than an iTunes download, vinyl or cassette album is a "loss leader" for the CD.
It's a different format, with a different price. Nothing more.
Or are you seriously going to tell me that paperback novels are "loss leaders" for hardcovers? (Mishler most likely would, since he seems to think that if it's the same content, it should be exactly the same price, regardless of format -- at least according this his latest bizarre assertion about trade paperbacks vs mass-market paperbacks....)
But hey, what do I know. I'm just the "King of Snark", apparently.
PDFs, regardless of price, are no more a "loss leader" for the print version of a game product than an iTunes download, vinyl or cassette album is a "loss leader" for the CD.
It's a different format, with a different price. Nothing more.
Or are you seriously going to tell me that paperback novels are "loss leaders" for hardcovers? (Mishler most likely would, since he seems to think that if it's the same content, it should be exactly the same price, regardless of format -- at least according this his latest bizarre assertion about trade paperbacks vs mass-market paperbacks....)
But hey, what do I know. I'm just the "King of Snark", apparently.
catsclaw227
First Post
I am still not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that 4e D&D is a niche product in the RPG industry?
It is the 800lb gorilla.
Maybe Erik M. can let us know if he thinks 4e D&D is a niche product...
rounser said:
I agree that 4e fragmented the (huge) base that was built by WOTC during the 3.x era, but it is not serving to a niche taste.
Where it used to cater to a massive megachurch, it now serves a regular sized megachurch, such that a relatively insignificant number of [you] don't even identify it as D&D anymore.
There are people that still play OGL 3.x games that at least recognize that 4e is D&D too, just another flavor.
Doug McCrae
Legend
Sex. I guess that's really a service though, not a product.
Doug McCrae
Legend
Erik, get back to work.
We're the idiots, Mishler is trolling teh intarwebs and we're falling for it.
We're the idiots, Mishler is trolling teh intarwebs and we're falling for it.
Treebore
First Post
The only thing that seems inaccurate about his post is his analysis of PDF sales.
Heck, even with his 5 to 1 rule PAizo is still making as much profit on selling the PDF at $10 as they are selling the print version for $50.00. So a loss leader? I don't think so.
Plus, WOTC and Goodman have both clearly stated that PDF sales are pretty much a meaningless part of their revenue stream. Paizo has even gone so far as to say PDF sales are not exactly significant.
However, he very well may be right about the game market shrinking, I know several publishers (smaller ones) are walking fine lines of survival and closing shop. Since they are publishers I like I hope their doors stay open.
Will it crash and burn into oblivion? No, I don't think so, but I don't think that is what James was saying either. It is walking the line between being the way it is and radical change, and I think the change is inevitable.
Getting back to PDF's, their sales suck for one simple reason, most of us consumers know they are far, far cheaper to produce and distribute than print books, so we simply refuse to pay such over inflated pricing for them. Simple as that. I know the book industry would love to make the ugly profit margins Microsoft and the video game industry makes on their video games, but books are not video games or software programs. So its not going to happen unless consumers become much less savvy. So if the book market wants PDF sales to explode, then they better slash their pricing to a reasonable profit margin, instead of price gouging us like the video game industry does.
So if a book company makes $10 per book in the print trade then that should be the PDF price. Not an inflated profit margin by acting like we are being given a deal over print versions by pricing PDF's at 60% of retail. We are not, we are being price gouged.
That is where I think Paizo is going down the right path. They know they only will make about $10 per print book sold through distribution, considerably more from books they sell directly through their subscriptions and website sales.
So selling the PDF for $10 is simply fair pricing, not a "loss leader". A fair price I think Paizo is going to reap rewards from. I know at least 6 people who had no interest in PF, but since I told them about the $10 PDF price point, they have since said they will now check PF out when it is released. Wy? Because the PDF price was such a reasonable one. IE not the over inflated price we see with too many companies. One of which is PAizo, with the prices they sell most of their PDF's at.
Heck, even with his 5 to 1 rule PAizo is still making as much profit on selling the PDF at $10 as they are selling the print version for $50.00. So a loss leader? I don't think so.
Plus, WOTC and Goodman have both clearly stated that PDF sales are pretty much a meaningless part of their revenue stream. Paizo has even gone so far as to say PDF sales are not exactly significant.
However, he very well may be right about the game market shrinking, I know several publishers (smaller ones) are walking fine lines of survival and closing shop. Since they are publishers I like I hope their doors stay open.
Will it crash and burn into oblivion? No, I don't think so, but I don't think that is what James was saying either. It is walking the line between being the way it is and radical change, and I think the change is inevitable.
Getting back to PDF's, their sales suck for one simple reason, most of us consumers know they are far, far cheaper to produce and distribute than print books, so we simply refuse to pay such over inflated pricing for them. Simple as that. I know the book industry would love to make the ugly profit margins Microsoft and the video game industry makes on their video games, but books are not video games or software programs. So its not going to happen unless consumers become much less savvy. So if the book market wants PDF sales to explode, then they better slash their pricing to a reasonable profit margin, instead of price gouging us like the video game industry does.
So if a book company makes $10 per book in the print trade then that should be the PDF price. Not an inflated profit margin by acting like we are being given a deal over print versions by pricing PDF's at 60% of retail. We are not, we are being price gouged.
That is where I think Paizo is going down the right path. They know they only will make about $10 per print book sold through distribution, considerably more from books they sell directly through their subscriptions and website sales.
So selling the PDF for $10 is simply fair pricing, not a "loss leader". A fair price I think Paizo is going to reap rewards from. I know at least 6 people who had no interest in PF, but since I told them about the $10 PDF price point, they have since said they will now check PF out when it is released. Wy? Because the PDF price was such a reasonable one. IE not the over inflated price we see with too many companies. One of which is PAizo, with the prices they sell most of their PDF's at.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
Sex is like Pizza, even when its bad its still pretty good. Its hard to get sex wrong, as sex is generally always preferable to the alternative.
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