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Anyone care to read my 4 page C&C review?

Vigilance

Explorer
Breakdaddy said:
Wow, I've never seen Chuck so snarky. Bad day, Chuck?? :confused:

Lol.

The short answer is yes.

I am extraordinarily mellow [dramatic pause] most of the time.

That's what I get for posting directly after being on hold with customer service and while finishing up a book (if you want to know what book, check out my blog).

Anyhoo... hijack over and apologies to all I offended and all that.

Chuck
 

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BonesMcCoy

Explorer
trancejeremy said:
While I like the idea of C&C, it does seem to have missed the boat for me. It's really too bad that WOTC couldn't/didn't open up the 1e AD&D rules.

I mean, there are 2 pale imitations of it on the market - Hackmaster (a bad joke, IMHO) and C&C (just bad), so obviously there is something of a demand. So why not deliver the real thing?
Well said. I fully agree.
 

Psion

Adventurer
Scadgrad said:
Absolutely right with this point. I believe that Der_Kluge, along w/ most critics of a brief character creation system, miss the point that the PCs aren't the only one's who have to use those rules. The DM uses them as well (and probably more frequently) and it seriously makes NPC creation much easier if that process is a simple one.

That's not necessarily an objective positive. GMing the game, I find just sticking with basic classes without variations and touches just as dull as if I was on the other side of the DM screen.
 



Dragonhelm

Knight of Solamnia
trancejeremy said:
While I like the idea of C&C, it does seem to have missed the boat for me. It's really too bad that WOTC couldn't/didn't open up the 1e AD&D rules.

I mean, there are 2 pale imitations of it on the market - Hackmaster (a bad joke, IMHO) and C&C (just bad), so obviously there is something of a demand. So why not deliver the real thing?

Question is, which of the prior editions of D&D do you open up to open content? AD&D 1e or 2e? Rules Cyclopedia? etc. etc. Or do you open them all up?

The reason WotC has open content in the first place is because 3rd party products point back to WotC. It's a great marketing strategy that sells books for them and drives away the competition.

So how would WotC benefit if they made prior editions of D&D open content? Really, they wouldn't. It wouldn't sell any of their current books. The only way they would benefit would be a direct licensing agreement outside the OGL and d20 licenses.

It would be nice to open up prior editions, but it's a poor marketing tool and it has the other added detriment of splitting the fan base. From a pure business point of view, it's best to support the single product.
 

MoogleEmpMog

First Post
scadgrad said:
Absolutely right with this point. I believe that Der_Kluge, along w/ most critics of a brief character creation system, miss the point that the PCs aren't the only one's who have to use those rules. The DM uses them as well (and probably more frequently) and it seriously makes NPC creation much easier if that process is a simple one.

Not for me.

I've never spent more than 1.5 hours preparing for any session of d20, going up to low-Epic levels.

Quick by-the-rules prep time is a convenience for adventure writers. I'm sure if I took a spin at writing C&C adventures, I'd appreciate the shortened "prep type" - although I wouldn't appreciate the pseudo-archetypical characters.

By-the-rules prep, fast or not, is an option for GMs. One that I have no reason to use.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
MoogleEmpMog said:
Not for me.

I've never spent more than 1.5 hours preparing for any session of d20, going up to low-Epic levels.

Quick by-the-rules prep time is a convenience for adventure writers. I'm sure if I took a spin at writing C&C adventures, I'd appreciate the shortened "prep type" - although I wouldn't appreciate the pseudo-archetypical characters.

By-the-rules prep, fast or not, is an option for GMs. One that I have no reason to use.

I call shenanigans. It took me an hour and a half to stat out some of my BBEGs from my last high level d20 campaign. I want you to stat out a templated CR 23 Vampire Sorcerer19 focused on conjuration magic and tell me it doesn't take about an hour, at a minimum.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
I found said vampire.

Code:
Samael Mesias Craven, Divinely Infused Vampire Sor19
 	Medium Undead (Augmented Human)
Hit Dice:	19d12 (152 hp)
Initiative:	+11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed:	30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class:	23 (22 Dodge) (+7 Dex, +6 Natural), touch 17, flat-footed 16; 17 (Dodge)
Base Attack/Grapple:	+9/+16
Attack:	+16/+11
Full Attack:	; Slam 1d6+7 + level drain
Space/Reach:	5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:	Spells, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities:	Damage reduction 10/magic and silver, cold, electricity, acid, fire, and sonic resistance 20, Fast Healing 5, Spell Resistance 38
Saves:	Fort +13 (+5 Cloak, +2 Great Fortitude), Ref +16 (+5 Cloak, +2 Lightning Reflexes), Will +24 (+5 Cloak, +2 Iron Will)
Abilities:	Str 24, Dex 24, Con –, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 38
Skills:	Alchemy +20 (+5 Int, +15 ranks)
Bluff +32 (+14 Cha, +8 Racial, +10 ranks)
Concentration +24 (+0 Con, +24 ranks)
Diplomacy +14 (+14 Cha, +0 ranks)
Hide +15 (+7 Dex, +8 Racial, +0 ranks)
Knowledge (Arcana) +27 (+7 Int, +20 ranks)
Knowledge (Monsters (Outsiders)) +17 (+7 Int, +10 ranks)
Knowledge (Geography) +17 (+7 Int, +10 ranks)
Knowledge (History) +22 (+7 Int, +15 ranks)
Knowledge (The Planes) +17 (+7 Int, +10 ranks)
Listen +26 (+6 Wis, +8 Racial, +2 Alertness, +10 ranks)
Move Silently 15 (+7 Dex, +8 Racial, +0 ranks)
Search +13 (+5 Int, +8 Racial, +0 ranks)
Sense Motive +14 (+6 Wis, +8 Racial, +0 ranks)
Spellcraft +27 (+7 Int, +20 ranks)
Spot +26 (+6 Wis, +8 Racial, +2 Alertness, +10 ranks)
Feats:	Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Combat Casting, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Penetration, Spell focus (Summoning), Extend Spell, Superior Spell Chaining
Challenge Rating:	23
Alignment:	Neutral Evil

Spells Per Day: 6, 10/10/9 9/9/9 8/8/6
Spells Known: 9, 5/5/4 4/4/3 3/3/2
0 – acid splash, arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sounds, mage hand, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance
1st – disguise self, grease, mage armor, lesser fire orb, magic missile, obscuring mist, summon monster I, shield
2nd – blur, flaming sphere, fog cloud, Melf’s acid arrow, mirror image, scorching ray, see invisibility, summon monster II, summon swarm
3rd – displacement, dispel magic, fireball, haste, magic circle against good, stinking cloud, summon monster III
4th – dimension door, Evard’s black tentacles, ice storm, minor globe of invulnerability, Otiluke’s resilient sphere, solid fog, stoneskin, summon monster IV
5th – cloudkill, cone of cold, lesser planar binding, summon monster horde I, summon monster V, teleport, wall of stone
6th – acid fog, globe of invulnerability, planar binding, summon monster horde II, summon monster VI
7th – ethereal jaunt, incendiary cloud, prismatic spray, simulacrum, spell turning, summon monster horde III, summon monster VII
8th – greater planar binding, protection from spells, summon monster horde IV, summon monster VIII
9th – summon monster horde V, summon monster IX

Possessions: Cloak of Protection +5, Necklace of Charisma +6, Ring of Tongues, Ring of timestop 2/day

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.
Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save (DC 32) or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.
Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn (see the Vampire Spawn entry) 1d4 days after burial. 
If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.
Special Qualities: A vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
Alternate Form (Su): A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. This ability is similar to a polymorph spell cast by a 12th-level character, except that the vampire does not regain hit points for changing form and must choose from among the forms mentioned here. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)
Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Resistances (Ex): A vampire has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +4 turn resistance. 

Summon Monster Horde I
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: A number of summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons an outsider (extraplanar creature) that attacks the character's enemies. It appears where the character designates and acts immediately, on the character's turn. It attacks the character's opponents to the best of its ability. If the character can communicate with the outsider, the character can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn.

Summon Monster Horde summons 2d6+6 of one type of creature that can be summoned with Monster Summoning I.

When the character uses a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. For example, summon monster I is a lawful and evil spell when cast to summon a dire rat.

Summon Monster Horde II
Conjuration (Summoning) 
Level: Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6

As summon monster horde I, except the character can summon 2d6+6 outsiders from the 2nd-level list or 3d6+8 outsiders of the same type from the 1st-level list.

Summon Monster Horde III
Conjuration (Summoning) 
Level: Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7

As summon monster horde I, except the character can summon 2d6+6 outsiders from 3rd level list, 3d6+8 outsiders from the 2nd-level list or 4d6+10 outsiders of the same type from the 1st-level list.

Summon Monster Horde IV
Conjuration (Summoning) 
Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8

As summon monster horde I, except the character can summon 2d6+6 outsiders from the 4th level list, 3d6+8 outsiders from 3rd level list, 4d6+10 outsiders from the 2nd-level list or 6d6+10 outsiders of the same type from the 1st-level list.

Summon Monster Horde V
Conjuration (Summoning) 
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9

As summon monster horde I, except the character can summon 2d6+6 outsiders from the fifth level list, 3d6+8 outsiders from the 4th level list, 4d6+10 outsiders from 3rd level list, 6d6+10 outsiders from the 2nd-level list or 8d6+10 outsiders of the same type from the 1st-level list.

Monster Horde spells author: Chris “Crothian” Gath

No way you can stat something like that out and still create any kind of dungeon, or any other baddies in an hour and a half.
 


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