Anyone picked up True Sorcery?

[JohnSnow]

You, Sir, are a freaking genius. That's a version of Slay that I could actually see myself using in a game, especially as an adventure hook.
Mmm, so many themantic and genre-approriate fun things can be done with this idea.

Of course, the really cool idea would be if the target retains their brain, intelligence, and so forth. No spell like abilities though.

Or, alternatively, maybe you set up two separate save DCs when the transform occurs...the easier DC is "body" and the harder one is "mind." That way, you can have characters that lose their mind...and other ones who only get turned into a newt.

That way, you've got the ability to do the classic Fairy Tale thing of the former Prince who's now a "talking frog" (or Finn Razell - the sorceress/talking shrew in Willow).

And that's just cool.

Another possibility would be to introduce a new talent labelled something like "curse." Possible variants include:

Turn target to stone (or other material)
Turn target to small animal
Put target into suspended animation

I mean think about it. Aren't most of those curses permanent transforms with a special dispel condition? Heck, you could even have one that transformed the person only at night, or only during the day, or...

The possibilities are endless...

 

[Banshee16]

Of course, the really cool idea would be if the target retains their brain, intelligence, and so forth. No spell like abilities though.

Or, alternatively, maybe you set up two separate save DCs when the transform occurs...the easier DC is "body" and the harder one is "mind." That way, you can have characters that lose their mind...and other ones who only get turned into a newt.

That way, you've got the ability to do the classic Fairy Tale thing of the former Prince who's now a "talking frog" (or Finn Razell - the sorceress/talking shrew in Willow).

And that's just cool.

Another possibility would be to introduce a new talent labelled something like "curse." Possible variants include:

Turn target to stone (or other material)
Turn target to small animal
Put target into suspended animation

I mean think about it. Aren't most of those curses permanent transforms with a special dispel condition? Heck, you could even have one that transformed the person only at night, or only during the day, or...

The possibilities are endless...

Those are some interesting ideas...but veering more back towards Polymorph/Shapechange rather than Slay.

Fantasy is full of incidences of the transformation of beings from one form to another......changes of sex, race, individuality, kingdom (ie. pillar of salt, tree), and species (ie. toad, dragon <Voyage of the Dawntreader>, spider, cattle, dolphin, pig, wolf), etc......and that's just looking at pre-D&D fantasy such as Ovid's Metamorphosis......since more modern fantasy has arrived, there's been other stuff, like svirfneblin being turned into hook horrors, villagers being turned into ogres that rampage through their old towns, etc.

I understand that the lack of that ability is partly a result of perceived (and in some cases, real) balance problems, but unfortunately, it's become a bit of a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" scenario.

Interestingly, the source material behind the shapechange talent in the True Sorcery book was the Black Company novels.....and in those novels, the Lady threatened to turn another character (unwilling) into a toad....and she herself turned herself into a woman with a different appearance when she was on the Plain of Fear so the inhabitants wouldn't recognize her....and she made reference to the fact that the transformation was permanent until she reversed it. Yet, taken as written, the system written for the BCCS, which became True Sorcery, wouldn't permit this...

In all honesty, I understand that this is a truly minor point....the True Sorcery system is really flexible, and I really like it because of all the *other* stuff it allows....I just find this lack almost like a minor flaw in the system....like having a pebble stuck in your sandal.

I like the idea of victims of the spell gradually losing their minds....and there's plenty of reference in fantasy literature to that kind of thing.....from the woman who was turned into the creature Scylaa (Sp?) who ended up spending her life pulling sailors out of passing ships and devouring them, to a short story from the Dragonlance Tales novelas about Raistlin and Caramon battling a wizard who turned his opponents into animals, including a cougar, a wren, and others. Victims of his spell gradually lost their minds and became Int (2) animals unless they were reminded of their true nature by having one of their "human" belongings in contact with their bodies at all times. That in turn became the plot hook for an entire story.

I think maybe part of the answer is to restore the original "losing your mind" characteristic from Polymorph Other....

Maybe permanent transformations are possible with the Shapechange talent, but if it's a form that is more powerful than one's originating form, the victim must make a successful Will save ever day or begin to assume the personality/characteristics of their new form.....when they go "all the way", they become an NPC. Turning a person into a different person, or into a weaker being....ie. turning a dragon into a human boy might not have the same effect. Maybe the victim gets a bonus, or doesn't lose their mind, though they do lose their old abilities...ie. breathweapon, spellcasting, etc......or, theoretically, that dragon would lose all his special abilities, but if he used to cast spells as a lvl 13 sorcerer, he's now a human sorcerer 13, with no other special abilities.

There was a spell in 2nd Ed. called "Change Shape" that caused a victim to gradually morph over a series of days into the new form. I think the chance of 100% assuming the personality of the new form was dependent upon whether the new form was weaker or more powerful than the original shape.

Just some thoughts to consider....

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Ok, so am I correct in calculating this (by memory from my readings this morning..)

If a spellcaster wants to create a Fireball, I need to:

Use Create Energy (based DC 15)
Increase d4 to d6 (+5)
Add 9d6 (+45)
+100 feet range (+10)
+25 ft radius (+25)

So that is to create a fireball similar to what a lvl 10 wizard can create..

This would be a DC 100 effect?

It's based on a skill, which means lvl+3 is your limit.

Let's say you've got a lvl 20 spellcaster. At *maximum*, he's likely to have:

Spellcraft 23 ranks
Skill Focus +3
Fourth Magnitude +32
CHA 23 (assuming roll of 18 at lvl 1, and all 5 ability raises going to CHA)

That would give him an effective skill of +64.

Is that right? So at lvl 20, he still couldn't create a fireball as strong as a lvl 10 wizard could? A roll of 20 would still only give him 84.

He could add components...verbal (-5) and Somatic (-5), as well as an expendable component (Third magnitude ability, -3), for a total of -13

So now his DC is 87......which he still can't hit with a roll of 20.

Am I wrong on this? Some of these DCs seem *really* high....Hellball has one of 289...that would require like a 220th lvl spellcaster...

Anything I'm missing here?

Banshee

 

[JohnSnow]

Am I wrong on this? Some of these DCs seem *really* high....Hellball has one of 289...that would require like a 220th lvl spellcaster...

Anything I'm missing here?

Yup. Tons. It's not that you're wrong, exactly, but you're missing a lot of things. First off, there's spell energy.

If you go for uber-kill spells, you need to spend spell energy to make them happen (+10 per point spent). You can blow spell energy to pull off powerful spells, but the bigger discrepancy between spell DC and Spellcraft Modifier, the longer the spell takes to cast. Bad idea. Stick to lower level spells that you can get off more easily. Or prep your killer spell in advance. You can do this multiple times a day, but you can only store a number of spells up to your INT bonus at one time. Think of it as storing your highest level spells ONLY.

So let's revisist, shall we?

Fireball
Create Energy (Fire): DC 65
Damage: 6d6
Area of effect: 20ft. radius burst
Range: 60 ft.
Math: DC 15 (base) + 50 ft (+5) + 15 ft. burst (+15) + d4 to d6 (+5) + 5d6 (+25)

Make the caster 11th level - Second Magnitude. We'll assume you want a blaster character. He probably focuses on Create Energy (Fire), and most likely takes talent focus. He also probably whips up a focus component for it.

Spellcraft ranks (+14)
Magnitude Bonus (+8)
Knowledge(Arcana) 5+ ranks (+2)
CHA 20 (+5)
Skill Focus (+3)
Add expendable material component (+3)
Add focus component (+10)
Talent Focus: Create Energy (+5)

Seems bad, right? DC 65 vs. +50 Spellcraft? Well sorta...

Casting Time: 3 standard actions
Spell Energy expenditure: 1 (+10)
Drain: 2d8 + 13

Now, you need a 5. Not real tough.

And, with a decent CON score (15 say?), said caster has 6 spell energy. And so can throw this spell regularly. If you're willing to suck up more drain, you could add 2 dice of damage.

If you're using this to replace the Sorcerer in a standard game, GR recommends the casting buffer rules (p.19), wherein our 11th level caster here would have a casting buffer of 11d8 + 2 (CON bonus).

As long as you don't try to throw your highest level spells without using spell energy, you're fine.

 

[igavskoga]

Thoughts

JS here gave a pretty good accounting of the spell and all the associated crunch, I'd just like to point out one thing I stressed in the very beginning of this thread.

Approach this system as if it were a Vancian fire and forget Sorceror and not only will you be quite frustrated half the time, you'll also miss most of the point. This system is vastly more subtle in play than mobile artillery. Recreating D&D spells is a good yardstick to get a feel for the system, but nothing more really.

Nasty killer stuff can be done (in some cases nastier), but just because it can be done doesn't mean that, tactically, its the best call to make. Most of the big boom spells are ones you'll want to take your time in casting and hold them in reserve (mostly because if you prep ahead of time you can take minutes or hours, instead of rounds -- this helps). They are not the type of thing you whip up on the spot. If you do, you're likely in trouble.

If you cast well within your means you can cast much, much more often than the core casters. This means you'll never be stuck throwing darts and will always have a use for your magic -- no hoarding for the last possible minute, or sighing because you chose not to memorize Knock and the thief you hired bought it 10 minutes ago. You also have the ability to tailor the spell to the situation.

Do you need 100 feet? More? Less? Do you need a 20 foot burst? Maybe you're surrounded and a 20 foot emination would work better -- if so those 4 slots of Fireball aren't going to do a damn thing for you. Hopefully you memorized fly and haven't used it yet.

Just some food for thought. As for Hellball having such a high DC, its merely an example of what is possible -- this system scales almost flawlessly well into epic level.

There is no spoon. Think outside the bun.

 

[Banshee16]

I'm trying to get a feel for the system more than anything. I do really like the concept. I know there are things that can be done that aren't possible in standard D&D....but then there are some effects that are missing, I think. In general, most of it's there.

I'm not necessarily wanting a mobile artillery piece with my spellcasters....that's not it....just trying to see what the limits are.

I'll have to go check out the casting buffer rules. I remember glossing over them, but not reading them in depth.

One of my concerns with using spell energy is that it disappears so quickly, and as it goes, the character becomes a progressively worse spellcaster.

On another note, with respect to prepping spells in advance, I know that it's possible with one spell per INT modifier point. But let's say you've got your Fireball spell. You have an INT of 16. Does that mean if you want to have Fireball prepped, and use it three times in a day, you have to use all three instances of prepped spells for it? Or once you prep the spell once, can you use it as often as you want? That would mean you could prep fireball, teleport, and knock, as an example, and use them as often as you want.

Banshee
Banshee

 

[CelticCavalier]

I've picked up a couple of things from my reading. On the variant Casting Buffer, think of it like spell points, or mana. Instead of Drain dealing non-lethal damage directly to your hit points, it drains personal energy.

(Question - book says Con Mod plus 1d8 per level. Is that a one time add of the Con Mod, or is it 1d8+mod per level? Any thoughts?)

Spell energy is not used in casting, unless you opt to use it. In most cases, you'd keep it in reserve as a buffer against Drain (subtract current Spell Energy from Drain per spell), and only spend it on the big spells for that +10 Spellcraft bonus. The caster could keep whipping out small spells all day without using a single point of Spell Energy, as long as they have the hit points (or casting buffer points) to keep from going unconscious. Drain is the big limiting factor, not Spell Energy.

As for prepping spells, once you use it, it's gone. You're actually casting most of the spell during the prep time, holding it, and finishing it when you want to. Think of like cooking - you can either sit down & do everything at one time, or you can do most of the prep work now & cook it later. You're still spending the same amount of time - the only time saving is when you actually use it. And of course, once you cast the spell (or cook the meal), you'd have to start over again to repeat it.

 

[JohnSnow]

On another note, with respect to prepping spells in advance, I know that it's possible with one spell per INT modifier point. But let's say you've got your Fireball spell. You have an INT of 16.

For purposes of this discussion, let's take a 5th level caster. In D&D, this guy can throw ONE fireball spell.

Fireball (As cast by Wizard 5)
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: LONG
Area of Effect: 20 ft. radius burst
Damage: 5d6

If I want to throw this thing in combat, it is the ONLY 3rd level spell I get.

In True Sorcery, by contrast, the hypothetical character with the talent Create Energy (Fire) can store up to 3 spells, and has the following stats with respect to create energy fire:

Spellcraft Modifier: +38
Spell Energy: 2 + Con bonus

Math: 8 (ranks) + 3 (CHA 16) + 10 (add Focus Component) + 4 (First Magnitude) + 3 (add expendable material component) + 2 (Knowledge(arcana) 5+ ranks) +3 (skill focus) + 5 (Talent Focus: Create Energy)

Fireball - A Spell Effect of Create Energy (Fire)
Casting DC: 55
Components: V, S
Range: 60 ft.
Area of Effect: 15 ft. radius burst
Damage: 5d6

Looks bad, right? DC 55 vs. +38? (17 pt. difference). That means it takes 5 standard actions to cast and I might blow it. Ah, but if I bump the casting time to 5 minutes (2 degrees), I get a +12 on my spellcraft check. So, I lock 2 of these in memory (still have room for another spell). Drain is 1d8 + 11 per spell.

That's not bad.

OR in a combat, I can spend a point of spell energy, suck up the extra drain and hope I roll a 7. Or I can spend 2 points of spell energy and KNOW I'll get it off. The drain might hurt though.

Of course, if I still need it afterwards, I can bank it again.

On the other hand, I could always fall back on this instead:

Cone of Fire - A Spell Effect of Create Energy (Fire)
Casting DC: 43
Components: V, S
Range: 50 ft.
Area: cone-shaped burst
Damage: 4d6
Math: DC 15 base, burst to cone (+4), +40 ft. (+4), d4 to d6 (+5), +3d6 (+15)

That's 1d8+5 drain...and can be cast in one standard action. Whenever you want.

So as you see, you can still be highly effective without any spells memorized. Even for a blaster, this system's good.

Just...be creative.

 

[JohnSnow]

One other example...just to illustrate how flexible the system is.

Let's say I've got an opponent who's going toe to toe with my friend. I want to flame the badguy, but I don't want to roast my teammate, so a D&D fireball is OUT. But this isn't:

Ray of Fire
Spellcraft: DC 43
Components: V, S
Range: 60 ft.
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack. If you hit, the target takes 5d6 points of fire damage.

Math: DC 15 base, area to ray (–2), +50 ft. (+5), d4 to d6 (+5),+4d6 (+20).

Of course, if I spend a point of spell energy & take 3 actions to cast, I could make it do 7d6...

 

[Thomas5251212]

I realize this is a bit of a necro at this point, but I wanted to thank various posters for making some aspects of this system more clear to me; I've been trying to read it and was a bit unpleased by a few things. I realize that this is based on a system where artillery magic isn't the norm, but I still was feeling that for my usage something with at least decent combat application was going to be necessary. I somehow on my first overview completely missed the ability to "hang" spells and will have to go back and look at it.

However, I had another question that someone touched on; what does and doesn't count in the casting time reduction calculation? I'm a bit confused, and particularly things like the feat that adds to the Spellcraft value with a specific spell and the components and foci modifiers can make a significant difference here.

Anyone still paying attention that would care to hazard a guess?