D&D 4E Are 4E powers mimicking poor playability of Dodge?

[broghammerj]

I want to love 4E, but I am a skeptic by nature. I will preference my post with the knowledge that I am excited by 4E coming and will definitely wait until I buy the 3 core books prior to making too many judgements......but one thing stands out.

After reading the news page on Enworld the 4E list of powers is starting remind me of Dodge. By that I mean a power which is useful but is often forgotten by players because its a bit mundane. As a result players never use their bonus. If they happen to remember to use Dogde than it is just another modifier to keep track of. 4E seems like it is filled with mediocre powers which add modifiers all over the place and may be hard to keep track of. At worst 4E may have so many modifiers it may be difficult to run high level combat for different reasons. It's beginning to look similar to a 3E party which has bull strength, bless, enlarge, etc all cast and asking, "What my attack bonus again?"

For example:

Warlord favor grants an ally attack bonus.
Knights move grants an ally move as a free action.
Tactical assult grant an ally your intelligence bonus to attack.

There are 3 powers which require you to designate an ally. That ally may go some time later in the combat sequence (Easy to forget). Two of these effect attack bonuses and can change from round to round depending on what the warlord wants to do. The ally affected can change from round to round as well. Sounds like a chaotic mass recalcuation from round to round. Now mind you the player has to remember to use these powers or that they are available.

Now multiply that by all the other things the other PCs classes can do to modify either the ally or the enemy. Dont forget to throw in terrain and condition modifiers. While your at it remember to roll saves for that damage you are taking per round from the breath weapon.......Get the picture?

For game design they wanted to get rid of the big six and constant reliance on buff magic. At least the big six magic items could be written on a character sheet and don't require constant re-calcuation. The buffs would usually last a whole encounter and require calculation only one time.

I get the sense this is going to be complex hodge podge of modifiers. Please tell me I am wrong because I really want to be.....

 

[HeinorNY]

I get the sense this is going to be complex hodge podge of modifiers. Please tell me I am wrong because I really want to be.....

IMO dodge wasn't complex, it was just a weak feat with an irrelevant bonus.

 

[The Little Raven]

Please tell me I am wrong because I really want to be.....

Knight's Move is an instant effect. I use it, you get to move immediately. No waiting, no remembering. Activation, effect, done. Nothing Dodge-like about it.

Warlord's Favor appears to be an attack which then grants a selected ally a bonus on attacking that target (probably on their next turn). It does seem a little like Dodge, except there's no round-to-round remembering, re designating or anything like that, as far as we know.

Tactical Assault, I can't really comment on since aside from "Warlord's Int bonus to ally's attack roll," we don't know how it triggers, or how long it lasts.

 

[Felon]

Yep, I have a concern about that as well. I know when my group ran their little demo using the unofficiallly-published rules that many abilities were forgotten. We thought we'd just use poker chips to keep track of stuff, but then you forget to place the chips, or you place the chip and then forget to use the bonus it confers. The trick with marking and using tokens is that if the baseline game has to incorporate those elements, at least for certain characters. But 4e's basleine is flat bonuses.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I certainly see where you are coming from but one thing means (to me and my players so far anyway) that we are not worried about it.
You have a list of powers and features; and so far it seems to be not an excessively long list. On your character sheet they will be listed in simple stat blocks. These powers etc are your character in combat to a certain extent. By this I mean most of your combat power is wrapped up in these powers etc. It is unlikely for even a high level 3E wizard to forget his spells and their uses and hopefully the same will apply to all 4E characters. Your tactical combat ability will revolve around these powers...basic attacks etc are out. So I think players will quickly get a grasp of this (seemingly) short list of powers and (hopefully) the number won't grow at the same high rate as a 3E wizard or sorcerer or cleric.
Oh, and we are going to 'card' all our relevant powers etc which will further keep a tab on them.
We had no probs in our preview runs using PHB Lite and the oakhurst adventure.
But time will tell I suppose, it could be a major stumbling block, especially for newbies/casual gamers.

 

[Pale Jackal]

IMO dodge wasn't complex, it was just a weak feat with an irrelevant bonus.

Indeed, +4 to attack is something you'll hopefully remember, and the Warlord is probably invested in reminding you.

I haven't played any 4E demos, and while people have expressed concerns about the "one round buffs" I don't think it will be a problem. You have your BAB, this turn you get a +4 to hit, and maybe a +3 to damage or something.

Of course, if you start getting 3 or 4 buffs, that could be troublesome, but I doubt (hope) that won't be the case.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I think that the issue with dodge was two-fold: it was a so-called "fiddly bit," and its effect was largely inconsequential.

Remove one of those two aspects (in all the cases you list, the inconsequential part), and I think you remedy the problem.

For instance - if, in 3.5, the bonus provided by dodge was +1 / 2 levels, would you remember it more often? Probably, because it is now a major bonus, rather than one that becomes largely meaningless.

The effects we're talking about here are not small. Adding someone else's int modifier to your attack roll is a bit different than a +1 against a specific creature.

 

[Falling Icicle]

For game design they wanted to get rid of the big six and constant reliance on buff magic. At least the big six magic items could be written on a character sheet and don't require constant re-calcuation. The buffs would usually last a whole encounter and require calculation only one time.

I get the sense this is going to be complex hodge podge of modifiers. Please tell me I am wrong because I really want to be.....

I share your concern. Looking at the Cleric pwoers, the Elf racial "aura" and similar things, it seems like there are going to be literally dozens of Dodge-like abilities in this edition, with meager +1 bonuses that are, at best, annoying to keep track of, and at worst, simply forgotten.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Looking at the aura powers, would it be seriously unbalancing to rerule them as bonuses to aid another actions?

You know Elf gives +4 on aid another bonuses to Perception rather than +2. It makes it an active rather than passive bonus, but it also helps an otherwise underused mechanic and makes it a significant bonus without reference to geography.

 

[crow81]

In 3.5 you had two characters that come to mind that did this the bard and later the marshal. Half the time the bonuses don't get added in and the bard player become a broken record "don't forget the +X" 4e looks like it compounds that with multiple classes adding bonuses every round

If I were you and was set on playing 4e I'd be worried.

Sticking with 3.5 I sleep easier