Are Archer Rangers getting the Shaft?

[corwyn77]

In 4E, healing has been distributed roughly equally over all characters.

Compare to 3E, where it was stored centrally (inside the Cleric) to be used only on those who need it (front-line fighters).

This is a huge shift that some of you might not be aware of. This makes it the duty of every character to take their share of the damage dished out by the enemy.

Oh, I'm aware of it. I'm also having a heck of a time convincing the current ranger of it, as well as the warlock in another game.

All of this to say: melee is king in 4E. Even if you want to be able to use a bow, choose two-weapon fighting.

The Archery option is a trap. If you play a proper archer, your team will suffer. And if you play your archer the way you need to in 4E, the other options are better.

Here I disagree. Even if you're 'taking one for the team', for a dedicated archer (little or no str), defensive mobility is more useful than an ability you'll never use (TWF). Whether it's more useful than Toughness is another matter. The
real problem is that prime shot is only a little better than TWF because it will still hardly ever come up.

There's a big difference between being around to take some of the hits and giving up free ones by shooting in hth.

 

[CapnZapp]

You missed my point: why play a dedicated archer in a game that all but forces you to "be around"?

Why not play a TWF ranger? He will probably still be the group's best archer for those rare moments when it's appropriate to act like one.

You still get Prime Shot, and you get Toughness for free. Nothing says you can't have a decent Dex just by choosing TWF instead of Archer style...

 

[Diirk]

You missed my point: why play a dedicated archer in a game that all but forces you to "be around"?

Why not play a TWF ranger? He will probably still be the group's best archer for those rare moments when it's appropriate to act like one.

You still get Prime Shot, and you get Toughness for free. Nothing says you can't have a decent Dex just by choosing TWF instead of Archer style...

Ability distribution is the main reason. Archery rangers will be going for dex/wis whereas melee rangers will be either str/dex -> stormwarden or str/wis and pick up some heavy armour feats.

Str/dex rangers won't be bad at archery, but they'll never come close to a dedicated archer, due to a lack of wis.

But really, whats the point? Just because you're an archery ranger, doesn't mean you need to stay back and never get hit. You'll have one of the best armour classes in the party, which means you can afford to take a few risks to get the prime shot bonus... which while it isn't impressive by itself, you can take some feats to bump it quite a lot.

Things like disruptive strike become a lot more impressive in the hands on an archer than a melee ranger, too.

 

[Klaus]

Ability distribution is the main reason. Archery rangers will be going for dex/wis whereas melee rangers will be either str/dex -> stormwarden or str/wis and pick up some heavy armour feats.

Str/dex rangers won't be bad at archery, but they'll never come close to a dedicated archer, due to a lack of wis.

But really, whats the point? Just because you're an archery ranger, doesn't mean you need to stay back and never get hit. You'll have one of the best armour classes in the party, which means you can afford to take a few risks to get the prime shot bonus... which while it isn't impressive by itself, you can take some feats to bump it quite a lot.

Things like disruptive strike become a lot more impressive in the hands on an archer than a melee ranger, too.

All rangers I've seen so far in play put Str/Dex ahead of Wis. One is a TWF ranger that actually goes TWF (but is the group's best shot with a bow). The other is a TWF ranger that has never used anything but a bow.

 

[Ziana]

Prime shot, what prime shot? Who needs it. It needs to be alot better if it's going to influence players to take the ranged feature.

It's one feature among many. But if you are flanking an enemy you can get the +1 bonus for Prime Shot (no one's nearer than you, they're equally near), and +2 for CA. That makes the OA (which you have Defensive Mobility for) acceptable.

Then there's Called Shot (Dragon Mag) which adds 5 damage if you have Prime Shot, Prime Quarry, another +2 to attack your quarry with Prime Shot, and Improved Prime Shot, +2 anytime you get PS (doesn't stack with PQ, so you'd replace it). Those are some nice bonuses.

PS is a strong reason for archers to take advantage of their high initiative order, move ahead of the party, and get off some early hits.

Take something like Hail of Arrows. +3 to hit every enemy in range, 1[W]+Dex+5 from Called Shot to each; then hit an action point, with Martial Mastery you can do it over again.

 

[LittleFuzzy]

In 4E, healing has been distributed roughly equally over all characters.

Compare to 3E, where it was stored centrally (inside the Cleric) to be used only on those who need it (front-line fighters).

This is a huge shift that some of you might not be aware of. This makes it the duty of every character to take their share of the damage dished out by the enemy.

That is, by actively avoiding damage you waste an important resource and hurt your team. Your party's ability to soak damage greatly improves if all characters take at least a few points of damage now and then. And since there aren't any long-lasting penalties of taking a moderate amount of damage in D&D (no broken legs etc) there is no good reason not to put your healing surges to work.

This is a fundamental difference between 4E and all earlier editions (and most other fantasy games).

Even if you are an archer, you need to get close to the enemy so that at least some attacks are directed at you (and not someone already burdened by a lot of incoming attacks).

The conclusion is that the old "truth" that archers do well to avoid melee no longer holds true.

You possess approximately one fifth of the group's healing surges - you must make it so you take a corresponding amount of damage.

None of this means you should play stupid. If there is a hard-hitting foe that easily overcomes your AC, of course you should leave that foe to the group's defender. But don't expect to keep to the rear just because you play an archer!

Think of the action-hero Legolas fighting the orcs in the LOTR movies, getting in close and personal. That is the kind of archer supported by the 4E rules. If you don't like that - don't play an archer and weigh down your team!

If you want to play an archer that keeps his distance and avoids getting attacked, you need to play another game, where you don't sit on such a big share of the available healing!

All of this to say: melee is king in 4E. Even if you want to be able to use a bow, choose two-weapon fighting.

The Archery option is a trap. If you play a proper archer, your team will suffer. And if you play your archer the way you need to in 4E, the other options are better.

I don't know whether melee is king or not, but archer rangers attract a fair amount of enemy attention even if they're trying to avoid melee.

Artillery, Controllers, and other enemies that hang back will often find it reasonable to try and take out characters like Archers because the Archer is always directly threatening them. Hanging back also leaves characters like Archers vulnerable to sneaking lurkers.

At my table, whether I'm DMing or playing, the ranger generally runs out of surges around the same time as everyone else, and he only gets hit by melee when an enemy manages to break free of the main cluster and charge him. Sometime's he got a surge or two more, same with the wizard, but more than once he's also been the first guy out of surges. He almost never provokes an Opportunity Attack *despite having the halfling bonus as well as the Archer's Defensive Mobility* because the first couple of times he tried, the enemies did turn out to be those nasty hard-hitters and he got pounded.

 

[Herschel]

Rangers generally are teh awesome already.

While I agree that the Archery special ability is lame compared to the TWF guy's special bonus, the answer might be to nerf the TWF guy a tiny bit.

For example, remove Prime Shot from the TWF Ranger. It won't matter if he's being played as a pure melee character, but it will convincingly make the Archery path better at archery.

Cheers, -- N

Why nerf the "lesser" character?!?!?! The Archer Ranger is generally the least likely to die member of the party. The Melee Ranger and Rogue are glass cannons who generally have to mix-it-up but the archer can sit back in relative safety and stay on the move.

And that safety is "relative" if facing opposing artillery and controllers where the Ranger can actually take some damage and not be such a drain on the Party's HP total.

 

[Nifft]

Why nerf the "lesser" character?!?!?!

In fact!!!!!!!...! The TWF Ranger is!!!!!!!!!!! Rather on the strong side! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Once the PCs hit Paragon level!!! !!! !!! !!! His raw damage output is unmatched! ! ! !! !! !! ! ! ! By anything else! !! !!! !!!! In the current 4e rules!!! !! ! .

Cheers,,,,,,,, -- N

 

[Herschel]

In fact!!!!!!!...! The TWF Ranger is!!!!!!!!!!! Rather on the strong side! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Once the PCs hit Paragon level!!! !!! !!! !!! His raw damage output is unmatched! ! ! !! !! !! ! ! ! By anything else! !! !!! !!!! In the current 4e rules!!! !! ! .

Cheers,,,,,,,, -- N

Raw damage output is a poor indicator of anything. I used the quotes because it's all subjective, but the Twin Weapon Fighter MUST mix it up and doesn't have the HP or AC of the defenders and doesn't last as long without help. The archer generally has more "survivability" and can do more damage by still being conscious even without toughness.

 

[Mad Hamish]

All rangers I've seen so far in play put Str/Dex ahead of Wis. One is a TWF ranger that actually goes TWF (but is the group's best shot with a bow). The other is a TWF ranger that has never used anything but a bow.

Put me down as a counter-example.
Elven archer ranger started with 20 dex, 14 wis and 10 str.