D&D (2024) Are Bishops "Clerics" or "Priests"

Clint_L

Hero
This isn't about power fantasies, this is about the expectations of the game.
No, it's about expectations of the story, for me. The game is flexible enough to adapt to the kinds of stories we like. It has never been a problem. I don't understand why you keep trying to convince me that something that has never been a problem, is in fact a problem. There is nothing structural about D&D that prevents stories from being grounded, at any level.

The game is just a vehicle for stories. It has no expectations. It's basically a bunch of math. At higher levels, I do have players taking on tougher foes, with more widespread implications. But they could still potentially be killed by an orc.

Take the ultimate fantasy archetype, Lord of the Rings. Gandalf is a Maiar, able to go toe to toe with a balrog. But a bunch of orcs and a cave troll are still a legitimate concern for the entire Fellowship. You can still tell those stores while also incorporating epic foes into the campaign.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
No, it's about expectations of the story, for me.

I don't care about your expectations of the story. I'm not basing my argument on the story as Clint_L expects it to be. I'm basing my arguments on the rules of the game and exactly what they say.

If your only response is "but I don't like that".... well, that doesn't rewrite the rulebooks.

The game is flexible enough to adapt to the kinds of stories we like. It has never been a problem. I don't understand why you keep trying to convince me that something that has never been a problem, is in fact a problem. There is nothing structural about D&D that prevents stories from being grounded, at any level.

If you are trying to say there is nothing in DnD that prevents you from rewriting the rules, then sure, I can concede that point. If you want to homebrew and alter things, then you can. But this is absolutely a world-building problem that people deal with consistently. It comes up quite regularly when discussing the power progression of DnD.

The game is just a vehicle for stories. It has no expectations. It's basically a bunch of math. At higher levels, I do have players taking on tougher foes, with more widespread implications. But they could still potentially be killed by an orc.

The game is more than math. It uses the math to show the expectations. The game absolutely expects that a CR 28 Greatwyrm will trivially destroy a party of level 1 adventurers. It also expects that a CR 1/2 Orc isn't going to win a duel against a level 20 Barbarian. Because the math states that these stories have these limits. It isn't 100% freeform.

Sure, theoritically, it is technically possible that an orc could kill a level 20 character, but in reality the only way it happens is with overwhelming numbers, an inability to escape, and some luck.

Take the ultimate fantasy archetype, Lord of the Rings. Gandalf is a Maiar, able to go toe to toe with a balrog. But a bunch of orcs and a cave troll are still a legitimate concern for the entire Fellowship. You can still tell those stores while also incorporating epic foes into the campaign.

The ultimate fantasy archetype? Woof, not for me.

But sure, you can absolutely use it to prove my point. No one in the Fellowship EXCEPT Gandalf the Celestial Angel stood a chance against the Balrog. Everyone ran. Every single one of them fled because to stay would have been death. Additionally, that scene with the Balrog is the only point in the entire series we have Gandalf accessing his divine magic. And it is against a foe he is the antithesis of, meaning it was likely the height of his power.

But in DnD? In DnD the literal angelic servant of the Gods wouldn't be fighting alone, the rest of the party would help them. Meaning that they would have to be a lot stronger. Strong enough that a fight against the orcs and a cave troll wouldn't have been as dire a threat to them. And if you want them fighting Sauron himself (which at DnD level 20, is exactly the type of fight you are supposed to be able to have) then all of them would have had to be stronger than THAT, including Gandalf, and by that point... are a couple of orcs really a threat to be fleeing from?

I mean, honestly, truly and honestly, would you take ten CR 2 orogs (the closest we have to the white hand orcs) and send them against a level 17 party and expect the party to go "Oh no! This is a dire threat. We must run and hide before they catch us!" Or would they go "okay, um... we turn around? Are you going to have us play this out or should we just mark like a 5th level spell slot and describe how we slaughter them?"

And unless you have either REALLY put in some work to make these orcs special, the answer of "No, these orcs are a true match for your strength" is going to be met with "What?! HOW?!"
 

Clint_L

Hero
I don't care about your expectations of the story. I'm not basing my argument on the story as Clint_L expects it to be. I'm basing my arguments on the rules of the game and exactly what they say.

If your only response is "but I don't like that".... well, that doesn't rewrite the rulebooks.



If you are trying to say there is nothing in DnD that prevents you from rewriting the rules, then sure, I can concede that point. If you want to homebrew and alter things, then you can. But this is absolutely a world-building problem that people deal with consistently. It comes up quite regularly when discussing the power progression of DnD.



The game is more than math. It uses the math to show the expectations. The game absolutely expects that a CR 28 Greatwyrm will trivially destroy a party of level 1 adventurers. It also expects that a CR 1/2 Orc isn't going to win a duel against a level 20 Barbarian. Because the math states that these stories have these limits. It isn't 100% freeform.

Sure, theoritically, it is technically possible that an orc could kill a level 20 character, but in reality the only way it happens is with overwhelming numbers, an inability to escape, and some luck.



The ultimate fantasy archetype? Woof, not for me.

But sure, you can absolutely use it to prove my point. No one in the Fellowship EXCEPT Gandalf the Celestial Angel stood a chance against the Balrog. Everyone ran. Every single one of them fled because to stay would have been death. Additionally, that scene with the Balrog is the only point in the entire series we have Gandalf accessing his divine magic. And it is against a foe he is the antithesis of, meaning it was likely the height of his power.

But in DnD? In DnD the literal angelic servant of the Gods wouldn't be fighting alone, the rest of the party would help them. Meaning that they would have to be a lot stronger. Strong enough that a fight against the orcs and a cave troll wouldn't have been as dire a threat to them. And if you want them fighting Sauron himself (which at DnD level 20, is exactly the type of fight you are supposed to be able to have) then all of them would have had to be stronger than THAT, including Gandalf, and by that point... are a couple of orcs really a threat to be fleeing from?

I mean, honestly, truly and honestly, would you take ten CR 2 orogs (the closest we have to the white hand orcs) and send them against a level 17 party and expect the party to go "Oh no! This is a dire threat. We must run and hide before they catch us!" Or would they go "okay, um... we turn around? Are you going to have us play this out or should we just mark like a 5th level spell slot and describe how we slaughter them?"

And unless you have either REALLY put in some work to make these orcs special, the answer of "No, these orcs are a true match for your strength" is going to be met with "What?! HOW?!"
No, I would just make the orogs or orcs of a sufficiently high enough level to challenge the party. Ten orcs who are high level fighters or barbarians are plenty tough, no rewriting of the rules necessary, though I am more than happy to home brew monsters as needed - doesn't everyone? Never been a problem. There isn't an argument you can make that is going to convince me that what is happening at my table is not really happening at my table.

As for the game being about expectations, I could care less about anyone else's flavour texts when it comes to the story we want to create.

LotR is the ultimate fantasy archetype in general. That's not really debatable, is it? It's like saying the Beatles are the most popular rock band - you don't have to like them to concede, "fair enough." For the record, I am not the biggest Tolkien fan, but I went with an example that everyone knows. My point is that, for the Fellowship, including Gandalf, a bunch of orcs and a troll are still serious threat, one to be ultimately fled from. Then they run into an even bigger bad, sure. But Gandalf couldn't just laugh off the first threat. The stakes still feel real in that fight - Frodo almost dies.

It is not remotely hard to make encounters for higher level characters in D&D that still feel grounded. I mean, for me, anyway. YVMV.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
No, I would just make the orogs or orcs of a sufficiently high enough level to challenge the party. Ten orcs who are high level fighters or barbarians are plenty tough, no rewriting of the rules necessary, though I am more than happy to home brew monsters as needed - doesn't everyone? Never been a problem. There isn't an argument you can make that is going to convince me that what is happening at my table is not really happening at my table.

sigh and this is the Elminster problem in reverse.

Let's say you have ten level 12 orcs who are an equal match for your party. Who are they? Well... they would probably be chieftains, right? After all orcs rule based on strength and these guys are clearly enormously strong. In fact, they are so enormously strong, it is really bizarre that they are all ten working together for the sole purpose of hunting YOU. They've made some sort of orc alliance? Were there even ten tribes that powerful that you foreshadowed in anyway? Because since they made an alliance to hunt you, it is logical it is because you killed orcs and scattered tribes, so how did you only fight weak tribes until THESE guys took notice of you? And they made an alliance.

But, let's say you make a mistake, and instead of saying they are from ten different tribes, they are from a single tribe. Now, why is that a mistake? Because orcs rule on strength. So therefore you have to have a single orc leader STRONGER than these guys. Otherwise, one of them would be the leader. Or maybe one them is the leader, it is the lead orc and his honor guard of equally jacked warrior orcs. Problem solved right?

Except, again, a force like this is immensely powerful, he would have to rule a tribe greater than any other. Did you world build that? Did you place that tribe in the world, ready for this event? How have they not swept aside cities that were earlier threatened with destruction by lesser foes your party defeated?

Sure, you can ignore this, you can sweep this under the rug, or maybe you are skilled enough at winging it that you can plaster faster than the player's care to ask questions. But generally? Generally people want to know if they have put world-shaping power blocks into their world, where they are, and what they are doing. And to do that, you sort of need to know if a group of level 12 orcs is anything exceptional. And by most DnD standards? They are. By official declarations, a level 12 group is a world power. A weaker world power, but a world power none the less, and it doesn't make sense for them to be just random brigands.

As for the game being about expectations, I could care less about anyone else's flavour texts when it comes to the story we want to create.

This isn't just random flavor text, it is what the rules lay out. I don't get your insistence in saying "well, if I want normal starving bandits who can punt about demon lords, then that is what is going to happen" and ignoring that the game does not naturally support that as the progression.

LotR is the ultimate fantasy archetype in general. That's not really debatable, is it? It's like saying the Beatles are the most popular rock band - you don't have to like them to concede, "fair enough." For the record, I am not the biggest Tolkien fan, but I went with an example that everyone knows.

Of course it is debatable. Heck, you say the Beatles is THE most popular rock band? Yet a quick search shows that The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Queen, and AC/DC are also in competition for that title. The Beatles are the most FAMOUS, but that isn't the same as being the most popular.

And using something the "The ultimate" isn't even appealing to the popularity or how famous it is, but trying to claim it is somehow the best fantasy archetype. Which is HIGHLY debatable.

My point is that, for the Fellowship, including Gandalf, a bunch of orcs and a troll are still serious threat, one to be ultimately fled from. Then they run into an even bigger bad, sure. But Gandalf couldn't just laugh off the first threat. The stakes still feel real in that fight - Frodo almost dies.

It is not remotely hard to make encounters for higher level characters in D&D that still feel grounded. I mean, for me, anyway. YVMV.

Wow! Frodo the baddest bad-ass warrior in the entire fellowship! Oh wait, no. The guy who is the equivalent of a rich middle class highschooler whose been in, what? Two fights by this point, nearly dies in a fight? Clearly a sign of desperate times and dire straits.

The fellowship defeats the troll and the orcs in moria, then runs from ENDLESS MORE ORCS. And, again, you need to put the Fellowship in DnD terms. The Fellowship is not Nine DnD characters. Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin by this point in the story are not fighters. So you really only have five people who can fight. Gandalf, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn. And yes, they struggle against the Cave Troll. In DnD terms, what would the cave troll be? Would it be equal in might to a Dragon? No. As powerful as a Beholder? No. It is, at best, a Hill Giant. A CR 5 threat. And it is, as you point out, a dangerous threat to Gandalf and the others.

In fact, Dragons are a great point. Smaug was not an ancient dragon, he was considered young. But even if we make him a full adult Red... again, Gandalf never once considered the act of fighting Smaug directly. No one did. It was considered suicide. But fighting and killing an adult red dragon would not be considered strange for a mid-level party, and might be considered too easy to even bother doing for a high level party.

Tolkien may have made good fantasy, but the power scale of DnD is FAR FAR beyond anything in Tolkien. The things that the Fellowship did as great acts of incredible skill and bravery can fit into a level 5 character. And this MATTERS, because the world building needs to understand what is a threat to whom. You don't have minor demons as a true threat to a powerful archmage, and you don't have a bunch of farmers beat back a mountain-sized colossus powered by god-magic.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
If we define Priest as "ordained or an unaffiliated prophet within the faith of a religion", and Bishops as "a high-ranking ordained priest," then All Clerics are Priests, and all Bishops are Priests, but not all Priests are Clerics and not all Priests are Bishops and not all Bishops are Clerics.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
And if they are priests what is the difference? Do priests not get spells from their gods? Does that mean only clerics are generally capable of healing in the world (and so is healing actually very rare?).
I interpret this to mean priests as in the "priest" NPC stat block.

And that priest does cast some spells. Just not nearly as many or as powerful as a cleric.

So the D&D trope of returning to a nearby temple to be healed still applies - priests are magical in D&D like everyone else - but clerics stay special.

D&D hasn't always worked like this, though. 2e and 3e had assumed levels of "NPC's with a character class", to the extent that Elminster had levels and Eberron was founded on the idea that character classes like wizard and bard were common enough that people knew about them. I think 1e worked under similar assumptions (see, for instance, druid levelling, where NPC higher-level druids were around and you had to fight them).

4e and 5e are definitely in the camp of "PC's are exceptional, classes are not something everyone has," and it's a little bit of an awkward fit sometimes given D&D's past assumptions. But, as long as most NPC's can access some basic magic, I think it works OK, and it gains some nice features when it comes to making characters like fighters and rogues feel entitled to the same level of wahoo that wizards can make.
 

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