Are monster types balanced?

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I dont think the CR system was designed for Monster type vs monster type play.
An Animal should not be balanced against an Outsider as the nature of the outsider is superior.

 

[Voadam]

But isn't every racial hit dice another bump on the ECL regardless of type?

Yes, but I think that is because one level is the lowest quantum for characters. A PC who takes a level of commoner still goes up 1 level too.

So if a race has four hit dice and a +2 ELC, it's +6 or are you saying that ECL is always modified accurately so that say a four hit dice dragon would have something like +4 ECL with those four hit dice?

The latter is the design goal. More powerful starting packages have higher LA. So all other things being equal fey HD should have less LA than dragon HD LA. Ability score modifiers and racial abilities and powers being the other part of the LA calculation.

A 4HD dragon with the same magic powers and ability modifiers as a 4HD fey should have a higher LA than the fey because it will have twice the hp, better saves, etc. Unless the differences are not enough to bump them into the next ECL.

The Race Creation Cookbook has a pretty good LA calculator for this with different factors for the different types, each level of racial HD reduces the LA slightly depending upon type.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

And thus "monsters" are balanced for their intended purpose, as encounters against the party. They are not balanced for use as members of the party. And that is fine to me since that is not their intended purpose.

Let's put aside the why of it for now. For the rest of this thread, if the reader asks why would you want to determine the exact balance of monster types? the stated answer shall be Because Vaar'uk, my Falcon Spirit Guide, has commanded that I do so if I am to honorably succeed in my vision-quest to save the Princess of Pan-Dimension Lunar Five.

It's not for me dudes, it's for the Princess.

But I think my question has been more or less answered. Thanks.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

The Race Creation Cookbook has a pretty good LA calculator for this with different factors for the different types, each level of racial HD reduces the LA slightly depending upon type.

Ah! Where can I find this?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

In determining ECL, outsider and fey HD are both worth one level adjustment.

Fey are bards with no spells or special abilities and a crappy BAB. And we all know how great bards are considered. In no way is 1 HD worth an ECL.

ECL is nearly completely broken as is anyways. I consider most racial HD nonassociated for ECL.

 

[Voadam]

Ah! Where can I find this?

Its a pdf by LPJ games. www.rpgnow.com has it.

 

[green slime]

PS Yes, this is quite possibly the nerdiest thing I could think to do with my time other than write Elminster-Star Trek-crossover fan-fic.

Well thank the big dood in the sky that you chose to do this and not the other, then!!

 

[Warren Okuma]

Are monster types balanced?

No. So what? It's up to the DM to balence them by giving or taking magic items or treasure from the creatures, adjust their tactics, hit points and the like.

Or who cares, it will balence out in the long run or it won't. Have fun, don't worry about the details.

 

[Celebrim]

Another CR/LA/ECL/EL rant, eh?

If you really want to tie yourself in knots, try explaining how adding a level of fighter to a monster makes it just as much more dangerous as adding two levels of outsider or dragon.

Straight up, 6th level LA+0 fighter wt. mundane weapons vs. 12HD outsider (no racial abilities, no class levels) and mundane weapons? Let's see...

BAB +6/+1 vs. +12/+7/+2
Base Saves: +5/+2/+2 vs. +8/+8/+8
Skill Points: 18 vs. 120
Feats: 7 vs. 5
Hit Points: 33 (avg.) vs. 54 (avg.)

So, I guess 2 feats are worth +5 BAB, +3 Fort save, +6 Reflex save, +6 Will Save, 21 hit points, 102 skill points, and assorted sundry benifits for having more HD. Those are some really good feats.

 

[Agent Oracle]

Another CR/LA/ECL/EL rant, eh?

If you really want to tie yourself in knots, try explaining how adding a level of fighter to a monster makes it just as much more dangerous as adding two levels of outsider or dragon.

Straight up, 6th level LA+0 fighter wt. mundane weapons vs. 12HD outsider (no racial abilities, no class levels) and mundane weapons? Let's see...

BAB +6/+1 vs. +12/+7/+2
Base Saves: +5/+2/+2 vs. +8/+8/+8
Skill Points: 18 vs. 120
Feats: 7 vs. 5
Hit Points: 33 (avg.) vs. 54 (avg.)

So, I guess 2 feats are worth +5 BAB, +3 Fort save, +6 Reflex save, +6 Will Save, 21 hit points, 102 skill points, and assorted sundry benifits for having more HD. Those are some really good feats.

Hi... Item:

That 12 HD outsider? Yeah. He's a CR appropriate for an ADVENTURING PARTY of 6th level characters.

Which mean he's going to be facing... oh, let's go with the clasics:

5 attacks per round. (fighter gets 2, rogue / mage / cleric get one each) POSSIBLY including 2 magical attacks (6th level? that means both flame strike AND Fireball are on the table here, or substitute your choice of elements and 3rd level spells) and aggravated damage from sneak attack (flanking rules!)

Better saves all around (One good fortitude save, one good reflex save, two good will saves)

Wayyy more hit points, plus Magical hit point restoration

Assorted magical items used to their fullest extent, a luxury the CR 6 critter doesn't get.