Are monster types balanced?

[frankthedm]

If you really want to tie yourself in knots, try explaining how adding a level of fighter to a monster makes it just as much more dangerous as adding two levels of outsider or dragon.

Elite ability scores and 900 GP of cherry picked gear to make the NPC a challenge to the party.

Straight up, 6th level LA+0 fighter wt. mundane weapons vs. 12HD outsider (no racial abilities, no class levels) and mundane weapons? Let's see...

We see your example Ignores 5600 gp in gear

 

[Celebrim]

Hi... Item:

That 12 HD outsider? Yeah. He's a CR appropriate for an ADVENTURING PARTY of 6th level characters.

Err... I think you miss the point. So, once again, here's the point.

If that 12HD outsider is a CR appropriate challenge for an entire adventuring party of 6th level characters, what's the 6th level fighter?

And no, 5600 gp worth of gear doesn't begin to compensate even in this most trivial of examples, much less in the case of an outsider being scaled up to meet a target CR.

Speaking as an official RBDM, I know which approach I'd use to maximize the challenge for a given CR.

 

[Agent Oracle]

And no, 5600 gp worth of gear doesn't begin to compensate even in this most trivial of examples, much less in the case of an outsider being scaled up to meet a target CR.

Speaking as an official RBDM, I know which approach I'd use to maximize the challenge for a given CR.

Dunno... 5600 in gear is some good armor, a weapon, and quite a few potions of healing...

the outsider still has a 10 AC, but the fighter could be wearing fullplate +1. and carrying a +1 weapon, and a shield, making him twice as hard to harm as the outsider, while giving him a slight advantage to harming the outsider.

the fighter has a +6 / +2 attack now, and a 22+ AC, plus the ability to regain HP by takign a 5'step and drinking a potion.

By percentages, the fighter has a 70%/40% chance of his attack succeeding. The Outsider has a 50% / 25% / 5% chance.

 

[Celebrim]

Dunno... 5600 in gear is some good armor, a weapon, and quite a few potions of healing...

the outsider still has a 10 AC, but the fighter could be wearing fullplate +1. and carrying a +1 weapon, and a shield, making him twice as hard to harm as the outsider, while giving him a slight advantage to harming the outsider.

the fighter has a +6 / +2 attack now, and a 22+ AC, plus the ability to regain HP by takign a 5'step and drinking a potion.

By percentages, the fighter has a 70%/40% chance of his attack succeeding. The Outsider has a 50% / 25% / 5% chance.

There is a major problem with this sort of analysis.

When a party faces 13 or so CR equivalent encounters, they are expected to obtain a certain amount of treasure so as to meet thier expected wealth levels. Our hypothetical CR equivalent outsider is on average go to have treasure expected for its CR, and being intelligent it will use what it has available. You can't just say, 'The outsider is naked.', because it doesn't work that way and its certainly not that way in the Monster Manual which is where the real example would come from.

But I don't even need the 2000 gp worth of equipment expected for a CR 6 encounter to show how silly this is. All I need is to give the outsider ordinary mundane equivalent suited to a 1st level character (much like a humanoid is assumed to have some poor ammount of equipment as part of its CR). If you equip that CR 6 outsider with merely a long sword, a large wooden shield, and studded leather armor, the situation you envision changes dramatically. The outsider has an AC 15+, and suddenly the fighters chance of hit is dropping down closer to 45%/15%. And remember, he's already behind by like 40% as many hitpoints before this fight starts. And I know you are dying to bring feats in this, but remember you are dealing with only 2 extra feats. It's just not nearly enough.

As this doesn't even begin to cover the outsiders greater advantage in non-combat situations - better saving throws, better skills, etc.

Nor does this begin to face the fact that back in the real game, what we are talking to is adding 6 levels of fighter or 12 HD of outsider to a creature that already has generally better than elite stats and the necessary equipment to do its thing (and so all these supposed advantages of an NPC are red herrings anyway), and which has significant racial abilities which will often get a huge boost by jumping up racial 12 HD.

But keep tying yourself in knots.