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Are "Pretty" Dungeons Better?

Janx

Hero
Chamber pots?

And, honestly, if the creature is fairly unintelligent, it's not unheard of for beasties to just poop in the corner. Take a look at the den of most animals and it's not really a pretty place.

Of course, realistically speaking, any long term lair for an intelligent species would pretty much require some sort of flowing water to pass through. Which nicely takes care of most waste issues as well.

I think waste disposals been covered.

But you raise a good question. Where does the water come from?

a stereotypical randomly generated dungeon of X levels seems to assume that you can dig down forever and not hit water. While I suspect there are places that is true, most of the places I've lived, you WILL hit underground water resevoirs.

Which I guess solves one problem. Right below level 3 in the dungeon is a underground water, and a well or two has been built (perhaps even well shafts down from level 2 and 1, where rooms do not overlap. To get to level 4 of the dungeon, since you can't go down, it's a stair case up from Room 23 on the far edge of the level 3 dungeon (thus not interfering with Level 2).

From Level 4, Room 18 has a deep shaft going past level 3 and around the underground water zone to Level 5, 100 feet below.

just a random idea to rationalize how it could work even in a random dungeon.
 

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Dungeoneer

First Post
Personally I have a really hard time thinking up interesting things to do with room after room of Generic Dungeon(tm).

When there is a logic or a story to the dungeon, I find it much easier to populate with cool ideas, clever traps and relevant monsters. In a way a dungeon can tell a story. The players may not notice the story, but it's there if they want it.
 

Fox Lee

Explorer
Unfortunately it's really a matter of opinion. Of course, those who think random slipshod dungeons are better have the wrong opinion, but it's illegal to imprison them for it.

In all seriousness? My group really appreciate a structural design that makes sense. Why is that grate there? Where is the light coming from? What is this room even for? They like to have answers to these questions because they are the kind of people who would ask.

Mind you, I do play with two mechanical engineers, a sculptor, two software engineers, and a medieval warfare afficionado. How else would it go? XD

As for myself, I am guided by two principles: firstly, if you're making something it should be right, even if it's entirely pretend, and second, pretty is always better. That's why I banned dwarves
 
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The Shaman

First Post
When there is a logic or a story to the dungeon, I find it much easier to populate with cool ideas, clever traps and relevant monsters. In a way a dungeon can tell a story. The players may not notice the story, but it's there if they want it.
I agree 110%, and it seems that we're in good company.

In Disney's California Adventure amusement park, there is an attraction called Walt Disney Imagineering Blue Sky Cellar. The attraction provides ". . . a rare preview of upcoming magic through the eyes of Walt Disney Imagineers at Disney California Adventure Park," through illustrations, models, maquettes, and video interviews with the people who create the rides and other attractions of the Disneyland Resort.

Here's an example of the process described in planning a restaurant in California Adventure.

IMG_1869.jpg
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This is where the designers begin. With the backstory. For a restaurant.

Living in southern California means easy access to lots of amusement parks. We purchased annual passes for Disneyland for the last three years, and this year we also bought passes for Universal Studios Hollywood. Both California Adventure and Universal Studios offer river-raft attractions: Grizzly River Run at Disney and Jurassic Park - The Ride at Unviersal.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOMdGMxhrIM]Grizzly River Run[/ame] [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IiHmkyNq_I&feature=fvst]Jurassic Park - The Ride[/ame]


GRR (grr . . . like a bear, get it?) simulates a river-rafting trip in northern California; Jurassic Park simulates an attraction in, well, Jurassic Park. Both rides attempt to create a believeable environment for visitors, and both attractions offer an thrill ride where the riders are assumed to get soaked to some degree - in fact, both rides go out of their way to make sure you get wet.

After riding both rides numerous times, I've noticed a distinct difference between the two attractions with respect to that last feature. On Jurassic Park, the ride begins with a trip through a dripping rainforest canopy, then passes along an Isla Nubar river; along the way, water squirts from behind bushes or from the mouths of the fringed dinosaurs to get the riders wet. After the final plunge, water mortars shoot a spray of water into the air as the raft reaches the bottom of the drop, pretty much guaranteeing a soaking.

On GRR, however, the riders are sprayed by leaking pipes in an old mill, by a waterfall inside a cave, and by a leaking log flume. There are no water cannons at the bottom of the plunge on GRR; instead you find yourself carried into the path of a geyser which jets water over the raft.

Now here's the thing: in addition to creating an environment and telling a story, both rides do their best to soak their riders, but GRR takes that a step further by making the soaking a natural extension of the ride environment and the story instead of simply adding squirting jets and water cannons to the experience.

Both rides deliver the watery thrills you expect them to, but the Disney attraction seamlessly integrates those thrills with the imaginary environment.

I think about gaming quite often when I'm at Disneyland; I never fail to be blown away by the attraction designers' ability to pull me into the environment.

And where do they begin? With the backstory. Even for something as mundane as a burger joint and a pizza parlor.

I agree with the notion that, all else being equal, a "pretty" dungeon - an adventure site which possesses a backstory and an a mix of design aesthetics - is better than one without; I would be very much at home among the players at Fox Lee's table.

I know some gamers couldn't care less; they're in it for the action, and aesthetics and (most especially) backstory may not enter into that for them. This is where the "all else being equal" enters into the equation; like GRR and Jurassic Park riders want to get wet, roleplaying game players want an environment which lends itself to action. "Pretty" dungeons can't just be pretty - they need to offer that action as well.

I recently put together a description of a tavern for my Flashing Blades game. The backstory is that the "Sail-Needle" was once a sail loft before being converted into a tavern. The structure has high ceilings, reflecting its earlier use in manufacturing sails for the galleys and roundships of Marseille.

So what, right?

Because those ceilings are so high, the tavern has two large chandeliers to provide light for the guests. This provides the opportunity for a classic staple of cape-and-sword adventure, the chandelier swing, not only from a single chandelier, but rather a pair of them. In this example, the backstory plays directly into creating an environment conducive to action appropriate to the genre.

For some gamers, perhaps many gamers, things like aesthetics and backstory, the stuff that makes an adventure location "pretty," may make little difference, but, in my experience, for the gamers who appreciate them, putting in the effort to make the environment meaningful really enhances the experience of playing the game.
 

Hussar

Legend
Well, I dunno if it's a pretty map or not, but, I'm starting very slowly to rebuild my World's Largest Dungeon maps. I thought I'd toss up my early work in progress and see what people think. This map is only one section of seven in the region and there should be twelve more sections by the time I'm finished.

I have so much work to do. :D
 

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Impeesa

Explorer
Is a certain logical coherency of design necessary for an enjoyable dungeon? No. But the moment a player makes an inference that affects their plans based on the design traits they've observed, you've added a layer of gameplay depth that you would not have had otherwise.
 

Dungeoneer

First Post
The thought strikes me that you could make an intentionally 'random' dungeon but have that randomness be part of the story and design.

Let me explain.

Say a wizard wanted to construct a 'classic' dungeon full of rooms of random traps and critters, and had done so. But the result was actually complete chaos, with monsters constantly stumbling into traps and getting stuck in blind dead ends. The players might stumble upon a goblin complaining that "I can never find the restroom in this place".

Could make for a fun dungeon. :cool:
 

CharlesRyan

Adventurer
I'm a huge fan of verisimilitude, the to point that I simply can't design a dungeon (or castle, town, etc.) without its backstory and original function very much in mind. And as a player I find a sense of verisimilitude really helps me get into the game.

But that said, when I look back at my favorite dungeon experiences over 30 years of gaming, there is no correlation to how "realistic" the dungeon is. In the end, I think the verisimilitude helps the campaign, but has little effect on the individual adventure.
 

CharlesRyan

Adventurer
I will add this, though: For years and years I've been a caver and an explorer of ruins, both modern and medieval. And there's one thing you see all the time in these places that dungeons usually lack: Interesting terrain challenges. Vertical drops or chimneys, cramped and odd-shaped spaces, small openings, narrow ledges and bridges, and so on. Most dungeons, designed on flat paper and 10-foot grids, lack these elements.

More of this sort of stuff is "realistic," contributes to more interesting encounters, and makes for a more memorable dungeon experience.
 

The Shaman

First Post
And there's one thing you see all the time in these places that dungeons usually lack: Interesting terrain challenges.
If you're talking about published dungeons, I agree, so why is that?

As far as my own 'dungeons' go, creating interesting terrain is a significant part of the fun of mapping the site, but similar to you, my background includes surveying caves and archeological site conservation as both vocation and avocation, so it's very easy to draw from those experiences. Many gamers don't bring those kinds of experiences to the table, which makes the lack of effort at adding interesting terrain to professional produced and published materials all the more puzzling.
 

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