Are Spells Balanced by Level?

[hong]

I don't think that minor creation is balanced based on principles of the amount of magical energy required to create stable matter or anything of that sort. The primary guiding logic behind D&D is mechanical balance. My guess is that the fear is that someone casting this spell over and over again every day for a year can make a lot of gold by selling the creations. Try several masterwork bows per day at 375 gp a pop, for example.

... which disappear after 7 hours or so.

They make the spell high level in order to make sure that the recommended treasure-per-level in the DMG is high enough that the economic impact of the spell will not be as significant - although it's still abuseable in this way if you think about it. Sure, there would be market limitations for offloading so many high quality weapons, and also the consideration of the number of wizards who have this capability, but indulge me and think like a munchkin for a minute here.

You have the words, but not the music. Minor creation is high level not just because you can fleece unwary passersby, but also because it's incredibly flexible. Stuck in a pit? Make some rope and a grapple to pull yourself out. Need to make some robes to sneak into the evil cult's temple? Done. Make a boat to cross a lake? Ditto.

I think many of the non-combat spells are also incredibly powerful if considered in a more realistic situation. The balance seems geared mostly around how important the spells are to dungeon crawlers. Charm person, for example, is a very powerful spell when you consider the full implications of what you can do with it.

Not much, unless you're high level and a minmaxed PC. Casting charm person a couple of times a day sounds like a great deal, until you realise that people know when they've saved against you -- and if you cast it enough, someone _will_ eventually make their save. If you don't want to be run out of town, you save up charm person for emergencies -- like, oh, when you're going into a dungeon or something.

Just imagine using in your real life a few times every day as you go about your business. Yikes! I find invisibility to also be very powerful - think of how in Lord of the Rings it is one of the most powerful magics in the entire story and think about why this is so.

Since when was the One Ring valuable simply because it turned people invisible?

 

[hong]

Someone suggested the idea of a Bull's Strength (or Cat's Grace) that didn't add to your existing ability; it replaced it. That is, instead of +2 Str, it might give you Str 18. An interesting alternative.

Ick. Just like gauntlets of ogre power in 2E, which were better off given to the rogue instead of the fighter? No thanks.

 

[hong]

Sorry, I just don't see how it's usually instant death. My PC's have used sleep, and it hasn't been nearly that effective. YMMV, of course, but all it takes is a 25% chance of spell failure (they make the save, even without anything added) to be fairly ineffective, when that chance is rolled for every critter you might effect.

Ditto. I've seen sleep used a couple of times, and in neither case has it proved "instant death". At best, it tones down big fights by reducing the number of enemies you're fighting -- if you win, then yes, the sleeping guys can be killed, but that's still "if".

 

[kenjib]

Sorry, dude, I just don't see it...DC of 10 + 1 (spell's level) + Int. modifier (+4 at most)....that's a DC of 15. Reasonable luck can avoid it, on at least one or two people. Something with a good Will save would be even better...and there's the whole "Well, it doesn't work on Undead or Vermin or Elves or..."

You're a first level wizard. You see a 4th level fighter alone. With DC 15 he has a 70% chance of failing his save, unless he has high wisdom or iron will - not all too likely. In addition there is a 81.25% chance that you will effect at least 4 HD of creatures. That gives you a total 56.875% chance of defeating an EL 3 levels higher than you with a single spell. Not bad. Compare this with 2d5 damage with magic missile, which is pretty much guaranteed not to kill him. It is a limited situation though, admittedly.

Hong, regarding minor creation - you're right. Replace minor creation with fabricate and the same principles that I mentioned apply, however. My mistake - I stated the wrong spell.

 

[mmadsen]

Sorry, dude, I just don't see it...DC of 10 + 1 (spell's level) + Int. modifier (+4 at most)....that's a DC of 15.

I guess I wasn't clear. My point was not that it was instant death, period; it was that it was effective death for anyone who failed their save (and fit into the fairly stringent requirement on hit dice, etc.). If you sneak up on an ogre or bugbear (Will +1) and put him to sleep, he's as good as dead.

Obviously there's a Save involved, as there would be for any of the alternatives I presented.

What's more important is that Sleep only "kills" individuals or small groups that all get taken out at once. That was a good point.

 

[hong]

You're a first level wizard. You see a 4th level fighter alone. With DC 15 he has a 70% chance of failing his save, unless he has high wisdom or iron will - not all too likely. In addition there is a 81.25% chance that you will effect at least 4 HD of creatures. That gives you a total 56.875% chance of defeating an EL 3 levels higher than you with a single spell. Not bad. Compare this with 2d5 damage with magic missile, which is pretty much guaranteed not to kill him.

If I'm going to be fighting 4th level fighters all by my lonesome on a regular basis, I'm going to want MUCH better odds of taking him down than just over 50%.

What you're basically saying is that the sleep spell can be a lifesaver in an emergency. There's nothing wrong with that. This does not mean it's a game-breaking spell, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[kenjib]

If I'm going to be fighting 4th level fighters all by my lonesome on a regular basis, I'm going to want MUCH better odds of taking him down than just over 50%.

Who said I was alone?

 

[mmadsen]

What you're basically saying is that the sleep spell can be a lifesaver in an emergency. There's nothing wrong with that. This does not mean it's a game-breaking spell, by any stretch of the imagination.

No one claimed it was.

Now, given that we have a 1st-level spell that can wipe out any one opponent (under the arbitrary HD limit) with one failed Will save, would it be unbalanced to have a mechanically similar but otherwise dissimilar spell that turned opponents into toads or statues (again, with a failed save, under the HD limit, blah, blah)? Or if it cursed them (as with Bestow Curse)?

How about if it was limited to exactly one opponent? One opponent by himself? (I'm not sure how I'd justify that; I'm just thinking out loud.)

 

[hong]

Who said I was alone?

And how often do you fight 4th level fighters who are themselves alone? If your DM is in the habit of throwing lone end-of-level bosses at you, he's being silly.

Believe me, I've _never_ seen sleep used to end an encounter early. At low levels, when it's most valuable, wizards and sorcs have much better things to worry about than saving up a precious spell slot just on the off-chance they might meet a lone fighter. A mage armour spell alone uses up one-half of a 1st level wizard's firepower for the day. And sorcs are never going to use sleep at all, because it's useless once they get past 4th level or so, and spells known are a precious resource for a sorc.

 

[misttar]

Now, given that we have a 1st-level spell that can wipe out any one opponent (under the arbitrary HD limit) with one failed Will save, would it be unbalanced to have a mechanically similar but otherwise dissimilar spell that turned opponents into toads or statues (again, with a failed save, under the HD limit, blah, blah)? Or if it cursed them (as with Bestow Curse)?

What about a spell that turns them into statues, but the spell is broken if they are rapped smartly they turn back?