Ascension ability questions

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

The layers aren't infinite?

Not on my watch they're not.

In 3.x the layers of each dimension are indeed infinite. From the Manual of the Planes...

I understand how the official rules have set them out. I'm simply stating my opinion disagrees with the official rules on this matter. But as with everything else people can pick and choose as they see fit. There is no right or wrong here, only opinions.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Rikandur!

I think Krusty's "planet sized" Layers of the Abyss are infinite, as per normal D&D. Simply said, Demonic Rulers can't control such big things and what he refers to is amount of controlled Abyssal Layer said demon have under it's hoof/tentacle etc.

(If you need to) think of the inhabited portions of layers as 'planets' amidst the uninhabited (and potentially unexplored) regions of space.

The only difference is that 'space' in this case, is instead just just some metaphysically barren landscape.

When two planets meet each other, their kosmic realities contact each other for the first time.

Its as if the demons just discovered this other group of demons (with their own princes and rulers) living 'over there'. Cue...war.

 

[Mr.Satan]

That would mean that elder ones are, in fact, not really the embodiments of an entire planar layer and are instead embodiments of a section of a planar layer, which completely contradicts your own rulings.

I think my DM will have her rulings on this stand.

Collective Material Planes/Dimension: First One
Individual Material Plane/Plane: Old One
Celestial Body, etc/Layer: Elder One

Our gaming group disagrees with your convoluted logic on this issue.

1. Because it simply makes little sense to us to overcomplicate the issue.
2. Because it completely contradicts our cosmology.
3. Because it goes against the grain of the official material.

 

[Omeganian]

Perhaps the higher classes are infinite, but have gaps. A Demiurge is a universe, but large pieces are taken up by higher immortals. Sidereals may have large pieces inside their bodies taken up by lowers. So what? Distance and size are viewed quite differently by them.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Howdy Rikandur!

And ten bottles of ale for Ya, U_K.

(If you need to) think of the inhabited portions of layers as 'planets' amidst the uninhabited (and potentially unexplored) regions of space.

IMO, it is only natural that mortal thoughts about what Abyss is shouldn't imprint on whole infinite something. It can, and should, interact with something along their own kosmic size.

The only difference is that 'space' in this case, is instead just just some metaphysically barren landscape.

Just like void is between Earth and Mars.

When two planets meet each other, their kosmic realities contact each other for the first time.

Its as if the demons just discovered this other group of demons (with their own princes and rulers) living 'over there'. Cue...war.

Demons are always fun. I agree with this. But I always saw it kinda not so hot when You state that planes of Good are only singular kosmically.

Example ? One of my players in now dead campaign "Grief of Fate" was playing a barbarian that became demon lord. Created a demiplane for himself as another "layer" of Abyss to pump up his status. DM, in this case I, knowing his reasonable plan to became Demon Emperor and make kosmically shaking changes in Abyss decided that king of heaven couldn't tolerate it and sent the assasin angel with his team ... they were barely within CR range of said budding demon-lord. His most special feature at that time, except of ability to make demonic rituals (epic version of Ritual Sacrifices from "Book of Vile Darkness") was a demon-sword that could devour magic and pass it on the boss.

When initial ambush didn't finished him off, leaving him with enough HP to be able to walk normally, he raged/frienzied and butchered the super team in one round ! I was somewhat surprised with the amount of critical hits he scored this round with Improved Cleave feat, though. He gained around 4-5 levels in this one encounter.

And didn't even declared war on Heaven. Just asked literate friend to write diplomatic letter inviting for more "playing around".

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Mr.Satan!

That would mean that elder ones are, in fact, not really the embodiments of an entire planar layer and are instead embodiments of a section of a planar layer, which completely contradicts your own rulings.

I disagree. I don't think it contradicts anything. The elder god in question may simply be known by another name in different sections. Also this ties in well with the idea that an Elder God is ALWAYS on its home plane...even when not.

I think my DM will have her rulings on this stand.

Collective Material Planes/Dimension: First One
Individual Material Plane/Plane: Old One
Celestial Body, etc/Layer: Elder One

Our gaming group disagrees with your convoluted logic on this issue.

1. Because it simply makes little sense to us to overcomplicate the issue.
2. Because it completely contradicts our cosmology.
3. Because it goes against the grain of the official material.

1. Nothing is more complicated than infinity.
2. Thats your prerogative.
3. If the official material was 'all that', you wouldn't need my material.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again there!

When initial ambush didn't finished him off, leaving him with enough HP to be able to walk normally, he raged/frienzied and butchered the super team in one round ! I was somewhat surprised with the amount of critical hits he scored this round with Improved Cleave feat, though. He gained around 4-5 levels in this one encounter.

And didn't even declared war on Heaven. Just asked literate friend to write diplomatic letter inviting for more "playing around".

Wow. Sounds like one tough dude.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Hello again there!

Always a pleasure to converse with You, U_K.

Wow. Sounds like one tough dude.

Epic frenzied berserker can be scary. Player himself was surprised great deal that he survived this ambush (Even more than I were). He suspected I planned something for him after his "battle intuition" gave him vague warning or two that I believed him to be entitled to.

Later player himself got extremely embarrassed when his spies/sympathizers informed him that major demon princes made peace between themselves to deal with "arrogant upstart". And decided to quit this character before it became Cosmic "Demon". Not big problem, since all we had to do was to revive his older psionic character, and at this level reviving soul devoured by demon is piece of cake.

Saying so, "Grief of Fate" was such splendid campaign very much thanks to Your works for 3,5 Epic. It helped us to keep things spinning and when my Co-DM made apocalyptic threat to the stability of our current dimension, with major breach from Outside and alien super-being devouring Astral Plane, we were positively delighted. For some strange reasons hordes of un-elementals and chatchling Void Dragon (to represent powers of the Outsider) outcome, asides from the fact that our team's chief magician had to repair the dimensional hole somehow, we had to deal with the result of getting insane amounts of xp and quintessence. And substantial damage done to the hosts of chaotic angels who were the only meaningful force that believed our team about the credibility of the "vague threat".

It was really epic, from start to abrupt "ending", when I remember we started at 5 lvl and the most "advanced" player reached 284 lvl with his character while still retaining his status as Intermediate Deity.
The barbaric demon-lord I mentioned before was retired around 180 lvl. New characters had hard time to keep up with the most dilligent players, the Dragon of our team and our magician.

 

[Mr.Satan]

What happens if a manifestation is shunted into an alternate multiverse and erased from it's previous multiverse?

Does the location it embodies cease to exist as well?

Is that manifestation just severed from that location?

What of a Sidereal that isn't the manifestation of a location?

Do those even exist? If so...what are they the manifestations of?...concepts?

What sorts of rules would exist for such beings?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Mr.Satan!

What happens if a manifestation is shunted into an alternate multiverse and erased from it's previous multiverse?

Does the location it embodies cease to exist as well?

Is that manifestation just severed from that location?

What of a Sidereal that isn't the manifestation of a location?

Do those even exist? If so...what are they the manifestations of?...concepts?

What sorts of rules would exist for such beings?

My guess is that maybe the location is shunted into a different multiverse as well.