D&D 5E Astral Projection

[Sword of Spirit]

1) Neither version you present is consistent with the wording of the spell.

The first version is consistent with a reading of the spell that admits an omission in paragraph three--which is filled in by p. 47 of the DMG. The DMG literally says you can do something with astral projection that the PHB does not say you can do. It directly specifies that it is unique to visiting an Outer Plane and references the metaphysics of such, and gives this as an actual reason why character might prefer this spell over other methods of planar travel to the Outer Planes.

I don't know what happened in actual writing. Most likely they wrote the PHB first, and then changed their mind slightly and gave astral projection a special benefit regarding the Outer Planes. Either that or they forgot that the PHB didn't say what they were writing in the DMG, and thus didn't realize they weren't being entirely consistent.

In any event, that interpretation actually makes the spell potentially worth the king's ransom in material components and a 9th level spell slot, which lesser interpretations do not.

In what way is the second version inconsistent with the text of the spell?

2) you're overlooking the benefit of Astral Form - you cannot die on the astral nor, really, get lost. You can always follow your cord back. With plane shift, if you die on the astral, you're dead.

The spell pretty much requires you to use extant portals.
It's very safe - almost nothing but angry giff will be able to kill you. If you get lost, you end up back where you started.

That benefit seems entirely underwhelming. If I can cast a 9th level spell, I don't have a problem getting home. I can just cast gate if I get lost, or plane shift and then teleport back home. If you are only immortal while in the Astral Plane, but your destination is an Outer Plane, why not just plane shift straight to the destination? I hear the scenery isn't all that great in the Astral Plane anyway. Sure, if you know the Astral location of a specific Astral portal that reaches a specific destination on another plane that you want to reach, you can use this method to get there. Or you could just cast gate. The only thing this spell does that you can't do cheaper and faster with another spell is allow you to be immortal on the Astral Plane itself, which immortality requires you to constantly look over your shoulder so that the plane's most common inhabitant, who happen to be lawful evil and territorial, doesn't come up and turn your asset into a liability.

I'm sorry, but it might be worth it as a 7th level spell competing with plane shift if they significantly reduced the component costs, but it isn't worth a 9th level spell and all that cash. Apparently the designers felt similarly, due to how they presented the effects regarding the Outer Planes in the DMG.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The only thing this spell does that you can't do cheaper and faster with another spell is allow you to be immortal on the Astral Plane itself, which immortality requires you to constantly look over your shoulder so that the plane's most common inhabitant, who happen to be lawful evil and territorial, doesn't come up and turn your asset into a liability.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I think you're overstating the threat presented by githyanki. In 5E, only the knights can sever cords, and only on a crit, and as a high-Int wizard you are 1.) much faster than they are on the Astral plane, so they shouldn't be able to get you into melee against your will anyway; 2.) capable of casting spells like Blur to reduce that crit chance to 1/400 even if they do bring you into melee, and spells like Mass Suggestion to prevent them from attacking you at all, and other spells like Clone to make a 1/400 chance of death an acceptable inconvenience rather than an unacceptable existential threat.

Actually I'd be more worried about the psychic wind.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I thought of mentioning clone as something to use along with plane shift, which pretty much negates the need for astral projection in another way. I left it out of the better alternatives because it costs more than a solo astral projection. But yep, that's a way to avoid the fear of death that works just as well with the cheaper plane shift as with the overpriced and over-slotted astral projection.

 

[aramis erak]

Plane Shift is more limited in that the material component is given an value (and thus is not substitutable with a focus), and must be specifically attuned to the destination. If you have a forked rod attuned to, say, Sigil, you cannot use it to get to (nor anywhere but Sigil from) the Astral. Each plane is a different rod, at a minimum 250 GP of handiwork each, in addition to the research, and potential adventures to get the materials to be crafted...

Plane shift is thus not nearly so flexible in terms of general utility.

Astral Projection can take you ANYWHERE in the multiverse that connects to the Astral. Perhaps requiring some intermediate stops.

1100 GP in consumed components, but no restriction on which plane...

The DMG addendum to Astral Projection notes "Since the Outer Planes are as much spiritual states of being as they are physical places, this allows a character to manifest in an Outer Plane as if he or she had physically traveled there, but as in a dream." Key word: Allows. The spell specifies it moves the body. The DMG enables another use - safe projection to the outer planes with no real risk of character death. Allows, not requires.

So, if you WANT to go, the spell text allows you to snap your body to you. Or, you can generate the dream-like incarnation, and be safe from dying on an outer plane, as per the DMG notes.

Generally, one is a fool if one doesn't use the option to generate a new body - but there ARE reasons not to. For example, if rescuing a soul from a particular plane, because you need to go, find it in its outer planar incarnation, then get it out body and soul - and in order to cast it again, it can be argued you'd need to dismiss it, which would snap one back to one's body if one didn't pul the body through. Astral Projection CAN snap the body out - a particularly useful tool for returning the dead to life. (They may not appreciate it, and the gods will NOT be happy, either. And making the attempt may result in having only a very short time to get to another portal... as some annoyed locals try to kill the bodies left while you search for the portal. But, hey, that's what the plane shift is for. Go in via Astral, snap your body and stuff to you, find your target, plane shift back to the prime with them.)

Heck, for those who are truly familiar with Greek mythology, travel to the nether realms to rescue the dead is a classic trope. One that, in a more D&D-ish cosmology, has been revived in modern tellings by Rick Riordan in the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Plane shift is thus not nearly so flexible in terms of general utility.

I will give you that plane shift requires more up front preparation--but it is significant that it is a one time cost, and the component is not consumed.

Astral Projection can take you ANYWHERE in the multiverse that connects to the Astral. Perhaps requiring some intermediate stops.

1100 GP in consumed components, but no restriction on which plane...

The problem here is that gate is better, faster, cheaper in that department. An expensive component, but it is not consumed, and works to get you to any plane, even planes that aren't connected to the Astral Plane. It has a one action casting time. It is the most precise of all planar travel spells, going exactly where you want it to instantly (unless a powerful being prevents it from working...and I'd think that power would apply to astral portals too). And its extra features are much more versatile than the extra feature (see below) of astral projection. You can open a portal that numerous creatures can pile through--yet it is concentration so you can dismiss it at any time to cut off pursuit. You can even use it as a way to get an ally to you, which can be quite useful.

The DMG addendum to Astral Projection notes "Since the Outer Planes are as much spiritual states of being as they are physical places, this allows a character to manifest in an Outer Plane as if he or she had physically traveled there, but as in a dream." Key word: Allows. The spell specifies it moves the body. The DMG enables another use - safe projection to the outer planes with no real risk of character death. Allows, not requires.

So, if you WANT to go, the spell text allows you to snap your body to you. Or, you can generate the dream-like incarnation, and be safe from dying on an outer plane, as per the DMG notes.

Now this interpretation I like. Basically what you are adding to what I said is that the character can choose how to manifest if they use this spell to reach an Outer Plane. Thanks for bringing that idea up!

The only thing I'm not sure if we are ruling the same in that department is that if you then take your Outer Planes manifested astral form to another plane, your body snaps back to where you are and the spell ends.

Generally, one is a fool if one doesn't use the option to generate a new body - but there ARE reasons not to. For example, if rescuing a soul from a particular plane, because you need to go, find it in its outer planar incarnation, then get it out body and soul - and in order to cast it again, it can be argued you'd need to dismiss it, which would snap one back to one's body if one didn't pul the body through. Astral Projection CAN snap the body out - a particularly useful tool for returning the dead to life. (They may not appreciate it, and the gods will NOT be happy, either. And making the attempt may result in having only a very short time to get to another portal... as some annoyed locals try to kill the bodies left while you search for the portal. But, hey, that's what the plane shift is for. Go in via Astral, snap your body and stuff to you, find your target, plane shift back to the prime with them.)

Heck, for those who are truly familiar with Greek mythology, travel to the nether realms to rescue the dead is a classic trope. One that, in a more D&D-ish cosmology, has been revived in modern tellings by Rick Riordan in the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series.

I have no problem with interesting uses like that. I just think that the DMG-added feature (which I agree is added by the DMG and not latent in the PHB) is a necessary component to make the spell worth its 9th level spell slot. It seems like that's our only area of disagreement.

 

[James Vann]

After read this thread I think it might be analogous to buying a ticket vs owning a vehicle. A ticket is generally cheaper and/or faster but only hit preset destinations. While a vehicle can take you anywhere so long as you're prepared. Which also means astral projection is the likely the most reliable way to find a lost or hidden plane

 

[Gadget]

I agree that the Astral Projection spell as presented in the PHB is hardly worth the spell slot or material cost. There are just better ways of getting places, and the potential immortality of remaining in the Astral Plane is a bit too niche. I kind of like the AD&D version better.

 

[Elderbrain]

I suspect that the reason for the discrepancies between the spell and the DMG is the fact that there are actually two ways to enter the Astral; Astral projection per the spell, where your spirit goes to the Astral and your body stays behind; and physically entering the Astral in your body, via a portal, plane shift, etc. In one case you can be "killed" and return to your body on the Material plane; in the other case you're fully there and if you die, you're dead. (All of this was explained in previous editions; i.e. in 2nd edition's Guide to the Astral Plane.) I don't have the text of the 5e spell and DMG in front of me, but that MIGHT make them both correct. As pointed out earlier, in previous editions you could use Astral projection to enter the Astral as a spirit, go thru a portal to another plane (say, the Abyss), and still be a spirit and not risking your actual body. 5e closed that loophole.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I suspect that the reason for the discrepancies between the spell and the DMG is the fact that there are actually two ways to enter the Astral; Astral projection per the spell, where your spirit goes to the Astral and your body stays behind; and physically entering the Astral in your body, via a portal, plane shift, etc. In one case you can be "killed" and return to your body on the Material plane; in the other case you're fully there and if you die, you're dead. (All of this was explained in previous editions; i.e. in 2nd edition's Guide to the Astral Plane.) I don't have the text of the 5e spell and DMG in front of me, but that MIGHT make them both correct. As pointed out earlier, in previous editions you could use Astral projection to enter the Astral as a spirit, go thru a portal to another plane (say, the Abyss), and still be a spirit and not risking your actual body. 5e closed that loophole.

Actually, they were both explicitly referring to astral projection.

I consider the ability to avoid danger on your destination plane an essential and intended feature--not a loophole. The change in the DMG was to restore that feature--but only allow it to count if you go directly from the Astral Plane to an Outer Plane. You can't plane hop all over the place with it. So it is a nerf to the previous edition versions of the spell, but it maintains the intent and makes it specifically useful regarding Outer Planes. That's a needed functionality for it's level.

I imagine Mike Mearls wasn't happy with the way astral projection turned out at the time he was writing the planar section in the DMG and kind of threw in this stealth errata to make it more useful and traditional.

 

[Elderbrain]

Oh, O.K. Like I said, didn't have the text when I made the comment. It should still be possible to enter the Astral Plane physically, with the consequences I stated. Letting Astral projecting-persons remain in spirit form on the Outer Planes would be consistent with previous editions - and handy!

However, this makes me wonder: Could such a Astral-projected person bring back any physical items they found on another plane (i.e. if I enter Demogorgon's lair and find a awesome magical weapon or a treasure chest, can I bring it back with me when I return to my physical body back on the Prime?)