ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Assenpfeffer said:
She's definitely done a lot of work for WotC, in print and on their website.
-
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Author (and artist) of The Book of Erotic Fantasy
- Thread starter GKestrel
- Start date
- Status
She's definitely done a lot of work for WotC, in print and on their website.
Gothmog
First Post
A couple of thoughts here:
To those of you concerned that young children might get their hands on this book, and possibly see nudity- didn't any of you look at Playboy or Penthouse magazines when you were a kid? I know I had seen those magazines by the time I was 10, and I am from an upper class family that didn't have ANY porn in the house. And from the game store owners I know personally, I know that they would not sell this book to someone who was too young. Its far easier for a kid to get his hands on REAL porn than this book, and real porn is likely to be more alluring and "forbidden" than the BoEF. Heck, I'd guess a in large percentage of households out there, the parents probably have some porn magazines/videos/whatever already stashed away that a kid could stumble across if they really looked. Most gas station owners are not as picky about who they sell porn to as game store owners would be. And a kid who gets his hands on porn often tries to show it to his friends. You are delusional if you think that the BoEF will be the first time little Jimmy sees boobies. That arguement holds NO water. For those of you that are really concerned about your kids seeing images of nude females (or males), wouldn't your time be better served by protesting to ACTUAL porn companies?
Originally posted by BelenUmeria:
Not to pick on you specifically BelenUmeria, but gamers always have had that stereotype, as well as any participants in more intellectual activities. Chess clubs, science geeks, computer nerds, gamers- they are all lumped into the same category. That stereotype exists because there are a sizable number of people in each of those groups for which it IS TRUE. It doesn't matter if it is true or not for you personally, because when someone gets to know you and finds it isn't true, they will think "well, he's an oddity in that group." Its not really even a negative stereotype, its just not one that will allow a person into the "hip" crowd, and I don't give a rat's behind what the hip crowd thinks of me.
Originally posted by BelenUmeria:
Oh, give me a break! This is not some conspiracy by liberals to undermine the morality of American (or any) youth! See above for the availability of porn materials to ANY youth who wants it today. And unless you have PROOF that AV is covertly tied to WoTC to produce this product, anything else about that is pure speculation. Yes, AV probably did use his name recognition to achieve a bigger furor over this than it would have received otherwise- but who cares? Nobody screamed and predicted doomsday for gaming when Mongoose released their Nymphology book.
This book won't make a bit of difference how gaming is percieved by the public, because they simply don't care anymore. There are better and more important things to be upset about than what a fringe group of society does with their free time. Gaming will never acheive widespread public acceptance or participation (nor would I want it to- it would be a disaster for this hobby). For those of you who object to this book, don't look at it, and don't buy it. I myself am not particularly interested in this book, but BY GOD I am not going to put myself on moral high ground and inform others that I won't let them have the chance to use this material in their game. Seems like common sense to me. Live and let live everybody.
By the way Squirrel Nutkin- nice parody. I am always amazed by how people get so fired up over sex in a game, but gloss over killing, stealing, and random acts of violence like it wasn't there
To those of you concerned that young children might get their hands on this book, and possibly see nudity- didn't any of you look at Playboy or Penthouse magazines when you were a kid? I know I had seen those magazines by the time I was 10, and I am from an upper class family that didn't have ANY porn in the house. And from the game store owners I know personally, I know that they would not sell this book to someone who was too young. Its far easier for a kid to get his hands on REAL porn than this book, and real porn is likely to be more alluring and "forbidden" than the BoEF. Heck, I'd guess a in large percentage of households out there, the parents probably have some porn magazines/videos/whatever already stashed away that a kid could stumble across if they really looked. Most gas station owners are not as picky about who they sell porn to as game store owners would be. And a kid who gets his hands on porn often tries to show it to his friends. You are delusional if you think that the BoEF will be the first time little Jimmy sees boobies. That arguement holds NO water. For those of you that are really concerned about your kids seeing images of nude females (or males), wouldn't your time be better served by protesting to ACTUAL porn companies?
Originally posted by BelenUmeria:
Not to pick on you specifically BelenUmeria, but gamers always have had that stereotype, as well as any participants in more intellectual activities. Chess clubs, science geeks, computer nerds, gamers- they are all lumped into the same category. That stereotype exists because there are a sizable number of people in each of those groups for which it IS TRUE. It doesn't matter if it is true or not for you personally, because when someone gets to know you and finds it isn't true, they will think "well, he's an oddity in that group." Its not really even a negative stereotype, its just not one that will allow a person into the "hip" crowd, and I don't give a rat's behind what the hip crowd thinks of me.
Originally posted by BelenUmeria:
Oh, give me a break! This is not some conspiracy by liberals to undermine the morality of American (or any) youth! See above for the availability of porn materials to ANY youth who wants it today. And unless you have PROOF that AV is covertly tied to WoTC to produce this product, anything else about that is pure speculation. Yes, AV probably did use his name recognition to achieve a bigger furor over this than it would have received otherwise- but who cares? Nobody screamed and predicted doomsday for gaming when Mongoose released their Nymphology book.
This book won't make a bit of difference how gaming is percieved by the public, because they simply don't care anymore. There are better and more important things to be upset about than what a fringe group of society does with their free time. Gaming will never acheive widespread public acceptance or participation (nor would I want it to- it would be a disaster for this hobby). For those of you who object to this book, don't look at it, and don't buy it. I myself am not particularly interested in this book, but BY GOD I am not going to put myself on moral high ground and inform others that I won't let them have the chance to use this material in their game. Seems like common sense to me. Live and let live everybody.
By the way Squirrel Nutkin- nice parody. I am always amazed by how people get so fired up over sex in a game, but gloss over killing, stealing, and random acts of violence like it wasn't there
seasong
First Post
Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy
A Review of Valar Project ad copy, by seasong
An exciting new book is being published by Anthony Valtera, and written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel and one unknown author. Or at least, we think it is. It's hard to tell what, exactly, the book is about. It's something about fantasy and sex, two taste-great things that may blend well, but...
Okay, wait. Before I start on this, I want to be clear about something. I think this could be a cool book. I don't think a good adult book about romance, sex, seduction, or even depravity in a game would be a bad thing. I'm not going to include certain things in my campaign, but for those things I do choose to include, I wouldn't mind a written collection of ideas boiled down for the gamer pallate. This review isn't about the book. It also isn't about Gwendolyn or Anthony - they both seem like good people.
This is a review of the ad copy they wrote, or hired someone to write. Now back to the review.
Is this just a republishing of the online Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge? A translation of GURPS Sex? A guide to romantic pursuit in psuedo-medieval fantasy? An expanded, 32-page cover of the arte of seduction? Or is this a City of the Spider Dominatrix module?
All we have to go on is the ad copy. And from the links in the copy, and the copy itself, my best guess would be that this is going to be a picture book of nekkid women in mediocre costumes and bad lighting*, with a few rules on how to handle subdual damage with a flail, and novel uses of Rope Use and Escape Artist.
I'm not saying that's what it IS. I'm saying that when I read the ad copy, and I look at the site it leads to, that's the impression I get. Gwendolyn made a post to ENWorld recently explaining the authorship, and let slip that "it has an erotic slant" and "it's a game product", but still I find myself thinking, "subdual damage with a flail".
Let's look at the ad copy in a bit more detail.
"A generation of fantasy roleplaying game enthusiasts grew up wondering what the elf maiden looked like without those gauzy robes."
This is the opening sentence, the wham that captures your interest. It is passive voice**. Things roll downhill from there.
Firstly, while the book may be tasteful, this sentence is just juvenile. The point of the sentence is not romance, seduction or sex in mature games - the topic is the juvenile fantasies that young boy enthusiasts grew up with.
Secondly, all of the women discussed are subjects of the lust, not active participants, while the men are encouraged to match the prowess of the legendary Conan. With the exception of Belit***, women were the subjects of lust there, too, rather than active participants. I don't care if the author of the book is a woman, that's stupid.
And yes, the ad copy may be misrepresenting the book. That's my point - it's bad ad copy.
Next, we have the apparently required blatant lie: "Valar Project, Inc. will be the first company to take on the subject of sex in the world of elves and dragons." Valar Project has apparently not heard of Encyclopedia Arcane: Nymphology. Or the Book of Vile Darkness. Or a half dozen supplements in other game systems, particularly White Wolf's World of Darkness series. Now, maybe none of those books has covered the same aspects of sex, and I'd be perfectly willing to accept that, except that they don't mention what aspects their book covers. The ad copy simply states, "In 2003 all the curiosity about sex in the realms of fantasy will be satisfied."
Riiiight. Just for that, I'm tempted to write a second review when the book comes out, titled, "Was all of my curiousity satisfied?"
At this point, we know that there are two things in the book: elf maidens without a gauzy robes, and rules for comparing your prowess to Conan's. Now we get to where the meat of the book is usually tucked away:
"All the images in the book use live models digitally enhanced from photographs. This process allows for realistic images of elves, fairies, nymphs and other standard fantasy characters."
I find it interesting that every standard fantasy character mentioned is fey or partially fey. In fact, every possible subject except Conan is, even the gauzy elf maiden and Arwen. If this is really what the book is about, may I suggest a quick visit to Elfwood? All of your curiousity may be better satisfied there. And between the Internet and Photoshop, I find it difficult to imagine that digitally altered photographs of the sort you might like is hard to find.
...and that's it, except for a link to the photographer's web site*, a photo of an attractive woman with grease smeared on her arms and a bloodied sword, and the "tip sheet".
The tip sheet is what really gets me. Anthony Valtera is not the author. So why do we care where he's worked for the past 3 years, that he founded a fetish club, or that he used his "adventures" to help create this product? What are Gwendolyn's qualifications? And can we expect that every digitally altered photograph will have the attention to detail that this one does? How much machine grease should we expect in our fantasy?
For the photographer, see my footnotes.
* Most of the women on the site are very attractive. Many of them have excellent makeup jobs. Some of them aren't even nekkid, and have good costumes to boot. But there are only two men, a lot of mediocre costumes, and the lighting choices, from an artistic standpoint, were just plain bad. Either that, or the artist's scanner needs to be replaced. I got the feeling, skimming through, of a bad 80s MTV video with rapidly zooming and receding, whacky camera angles. The alien chair was possibly the best costume on the set... and I say possibly, because I never got a good look at the costume. Which is typical of the lighting choices in these pictures - even the elf woman that is given as an example in the ad copy looks like she's being lit by headlights somewhere in the direction she's looking. Maybe I'm missing the story - she could have been just teleported to the modern world, sloshed with grease by a mechanic in his garage, and stabbed him with her sword. That would also explain the bank-like stone brick scheme behind her.
** Passive voice has a purpose. It is grammatically correct, and very useful on occasion. The wham statement is not one of them. Most writers use passive voice when they try to avoid personal responsibility for the text, lack comfort with the subject, or write scholarly acadamese.
*** Belit was easily the most interesting female character in the Conan mythoi, because she was one of the only interesting female characters, period. Still, she had spunk until she died tragically to give Conan something to grieve over.
Thanks. It doesn't really matter, but thanks. PirateCat smiles upon you, and that's good enough for me.GKestrel said:
The biggest problem with your book is your ad copy. Here is my review, and some suggestions:
A Review of Valar Project ad copy, by seasong
An exciting new book is being published by Anthony Valtera, and written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel and one unknown author. Or at least, we think it is. It's hard to tell what, exactly, the book is about. It's something about fantasy and sex, two taste-great things that may blend well, but...
Okay, wait. Before I start on this, I want to be clear about something. I think this could be a cool book. I don't think a good adult book about romance, sex, seduction, or even depravity in a game would be a bad thing. I'm not going to include certain things in my campaign, but for those things I do choose to include, I wouldn't mind a written collection of ideas boiled down for the gamer pallate. This review isn't about the book. It also isn't about Gwendolyn or Anthony - they both seem like good people.
This is a review of the ad copy they wrote, or hired someone to write. Now back to the review.
Is this just a republishing of the online Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge? A translation of GURPS Sex? A guide to romantic pursuit in psuedo-medieval fantasy? An expanded, 32-page cover of the arte of seduction? Or is this a City of the Spider Dominatrix module?
All we have to go on is the ad copy. And from the links in the copy, and the copy itself, my best guess would be that this is going to be a picture book of nekkid women in mediocre costumes and bad lighting*, with a few rules on how to handle subdual damage with a flail, and novel uses of Rope Use and Escape Artist.
I'm not saying that's what it IS. I'm saying that when I read the ad copy, and I look at the site it leads to, that's the impression I get. Gwendolyn made a post to ENWorld recently explaining the authorship, and let slip that "it has an erotic slant" and "it's a game product", but still I find myself thinking, "subdual damage with a flail".
Let's look at the ad copy in a bit more detail.
"A generation of fantasy roleplaying game enthusiasts grew up wondering what the elf maiden looked like without those gauzy robes."
This is the opening sentence, the wham that captures your interest. It is passive voice**. Things roll downhill from there.
Firstly, while the book may be tasteful, this sentence is just juvenile. The point of the sentence is not romance, seduction or sex in mature games - the topic is the juvenile fantasies that young boy enthusiasts grew up with.
Secondly, all of the women discussed are subjects of the lust, not active participants, while the men are encouraged to match the prowess of the legendary Conan. With the exception of Belit***, women were the subjects of lust there, too, rather than active participants. I don't care if the author of the book is a woman, that's stupid.
And yes, the ad copy may be misrepresenting the book. That's my point - it's bad ad copy.
Next, we have the apparently required blatant lie: "Valar Project, Inc. will be the first company to take on the subject of sex in the world of elves and dragons." Valar Project has apparently not heard of Encyclopedia Arcane: Nymphology. Or the Book of Vile Darkness. Or a half dozen supplements in other game systems, particularly White Wolf's World of Darkness series. Now, maybe none of those books has covered the same aspects of sex, and I'd be perfectly willing to accept that, except that they don't mention what aspects their book covers. The ad copy simply states, "In 2003 all the curiosity about sex in the realms of fantasy will be satisfied."
Riiiight. Just for that, I'm tempted to write a second review when the book comes out, titled, "Was all of my curiousity satisfied?"
At this point, we know that there are two things in the book: elf maidens without a gauzy robes, and rules for comparing your prowess to Conan's. Now we get to where the meat of the book is usually tucked away:
"All the images in the book use live models digitally enhanced from photographs. This process allows for realistic images of elves, fairies, nymphs and other standard fantasy characters."
I find it interesting that every standard fantasy character mentioned is fey or partially fey. In fact, every possible subject except Conan is, even the gauzy elf maiden and Arwen. If this is really what the book is about, may I suggest a quick visit to Elfwood? All of your curiousity may be better satisfied there. And between the Internet and Photoshop, I find it difficult to imagine that digitally altered photographs of the sort you might like is hard to find.
...and that's it, except for a link to the photographer's web site*, a photo of an attractive woman with grease smeared on her arms and a bloodied sword, and the "tip sheet".
The tip sheet is what really gets me. Anthony Valtera is not the author. So why do we care where he's worked for the past 3 years, that he founded a fetish club, or that he used his "adventures" to help create this product? What are Gwendolyn's qualifications? And can we expect that every digitally altered photograph will have the attention to detail that this one does? How much machine grease should we expect in our fantasy?
For the photographer, see my footnotes.
* Most of the women on the site are very attractive. Many of them have excellent makeup jobs. Some of them aren't even nekkid, and have good costumes to boot. But there are only two men, a lot of mediocre costumes, and the lighting choices, from an artistic standpoint, were just plain bad. Either that, or the artist's scanner needs to be replaced. I got the feeling, skimming through, of a bad 80s MTV video with rapidly zooming and receding, whacky camera angles. The alien chair was possibly the best costume on the set... and I say possibly, because I never got a good look at the costume. Which is typical of the lighting choices in these pictures - even the elf woman that is given as an example in the ad copy looks like she's being lit by headlights somewhere in the direction she's looking. Maybe I'm missing the story - she could have been just teleported to the modern world, sloshed with grease by a mechanic in his garage, and stabbed him with her sword. That would also explain the bank-like stone brick scheme behind her.
** Passive voice has a purpose. It is grammatically correct, and very useful on occasion. The wham statement is not one of them. Most writers use passive voice when they try to avoid personal responsibility for the text, lack comfort with the subject, or write scholarly acadamese.
*** Belit was easily the most interesting female character in the Conan mythoi, because she was one of the only interesting female characters, period. Still, she had spunk until she died tragically to give Conan something to grieve over.
Assenpfeffer
First Post
ColonelHardisson said:
Freelance work? Or on staff?
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Assenpfeffer said:
I don't know for sure.
edbonny
Explorer
BlackWych said:
These questions are extremely narrow-minded as well as being leading.
What "negative perspective" could you possibly be talking about? With an incredible successful relaunch of the the D&D line 3 years ago, various positive write-ups and mentions in magazines like Time/Newsweek and newspapers (New York Times), a slew of extremely popular video games and so much more, I can't fathom where a negative perspective even exists except perhaps among a fringe minority.
And this question "about the money?" Nearly all books are published to make money - that pays the authors, printers, et. al. for their work. Do you want this book to be given away for free? Or are you implying something else.
Please enlighten me. I am curious as to what this negative perspective is and what money you are talking about.
- Ed
d20Dwarf said:
Thrive? Comic books are dying on the shelves as an industry, it's not nearly as vibrant as it once was. The decline coincided with the rise in the number of independent, edgy, ULTRA violent, ULTRA sexual comic books.
Whether or not that was the cause of the decline, I can't say, so don't go accusing me of post hoc ergo propter hoc.I'm just saying that it's possible that this sort of content DOES hurt sales in a primarily escapist market, whether it be aimed at children or adults.
Hmmm...yet that's not really the segment of the comic book industry that's hurting right now. In fact, the mature lines are doing very well. The traditional super hero titles are the ones that have been suffering. More likely reasons for the decline: oversaturation of the market with too many publishers putting out far too many titles, the disappearance of "comic book collectible" buyers who popped in and out around the time of the Death of Superman series, and rapid price increases forcing people to cut down on the sheer number of books bought.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Quinn said:
Actually, that article is exactly what I'm talking about. Can a prosecutor possibly get more ignorant than to suggest that Dungeons and Dragons compelled a teenager to describe his friends murdering somebody?
Do you think that the prosecutor is going to refer to any specific D&D product in the course of his arguments? I highly doubt it. In fact, I'll bet $50 that that prosecutor has never heard of the D20 license, and probably hasn't heard of the Book of Vile Darkness (the last tempest in a teapot we had 'round these parts).
The World at Large doesn't know jack about our geeky little hobby. If someone publishes Elves Gone Wild, or Hobbits 'n Chains, or Gettin' Kinky with Polymorph Self, or whatever, nobody in the World at Large is going to notice. They haven't noticed in the past, they're not noticing now, and there's no signs that they'll notice in the future.
There may be good arguments against this book (although I've not yet heard them). Claiming that it's going to hurt the reputations of gamers is not a good argument.
Daniel
edbonny
Explorer
Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy
Congratulations on taking this bold step! This is a topic that has long deserved a tasteful examination. I am very interested in hearing more about the book's content.
Romance, seduction, love, lust, love lost and all other aspects that can claim a link to things erotic are apart of our real world and so can (and do) become a part of our gaming world.
Keep us updated!
- Ed
GKestrel said:
Congratulations on taking this bold step! This is a topic that has long deserved a tasteful examination. I am very interested in hearing more about the book's content.
Romance, seduction, love, lust, love lost and all other aspects that can claim a link to things erotic are apart of our real world and so can (and do) become a part of our gaming world.
Keep us updated!
- Ed
- Status
