BADD- evaluate my dragon DM'ing? (KotSQ, Glacier Season module SPOILERS)

[Crispy Critter]

Whether the characters did nothing wrong by attacking the Wyrm in its lair is subjective. On a metagame level, there was nothing wrong with what they did. They exerted their own free will with the tools they had and decided that they would try to take out out a CR20 dragon. It's perfectly within their rights to choose this course of action. It's up to the DM to accomodate the player's actions by laying the smackdown on them.

The characters made a bad choice and are lucky to be alive. At 11th lvl., a party should not be taking the fight to a great wyrm in its lair. This was hopefully a good lesson for the characters whose confidence was obviously clouding their judgment.

 

[Wolfspider]

Man, the crap I keep hearing from the players (more like player- singular) about my restrictions on the Harm spell. Ugh.

Every time you talk about the player of the lich cleric and his whiny attitude, I get angrier and angrier. Tell that guy to shut up already!

 

[Pielorinho]

I have no idea about the ego comment, what the person was talking about.

Out of curiosity, did you scale this adventure downwards, or are you using stats straight out of the adventure? If the latter, how did you expect the PCs to behave?

Most importantly, did they have fun? I think I woulda had fun in this situation if I'd been them; right now, I'd be teleporting my butt away. Far, far away. I'd spend a couple of years adventuring in another part of the world. Keep a low profile. Try to stay out of the way of any dragons.

Daniel

 

[Dr Midnight]

I had a hell of a lot of fun.
Sorry if it's coming across like anything else.

Man, the debate rages on... both here and in the story hour thread. Apparently that I was CONSIDERING repealing the decision about Harm in mid-combat and then didn't repeal it is like some promise that I made and then broke.

 

[Xaltar]

I don't think that the problem was so much the spell, but rather the fact that the players feel like they took a whole lot of slack for their decision.

I admit that I haven't really read this post, nor do I think that I want to, but I have seen a couple and pretty much everyone thinks that we should all just die.

Our party isn't all 11th level, that was just me. Most are 12, and a couple were 13.

As players, it most likely didn't make that much sense, but truthfully, we didn't think that we could win. As for our characters, they were sort of thinking the same thing, but why not try.

It was my impression all around, that we would fail, and then have to enter the Dragon's lair in the typical fashion. That is part of the reason why we had worked out such a plan for escape. My character stood for over four rounds with a readied action to cast "teleport."

Anyway, we lost, and I think that we can accept that. We felt like we really needed a big challenge, and the fight with the dragon was both fun and sobering.

As for all the debate about the "harm" spell, I think that was more of an issue when the group felt like they were being attacked for being such stupid players. WE actually thought that our plan was innovative, and wanted to give it a shot.

We spent a good deal of time planning, and the battle ended the way that I had expected it to. I DM for the same group on a different night, and similar stuff has happened in the past.

I'm sorry that this whole issue became such a big deal.

Perhaps it is time for the Knights to take a break!

 

[Wolfspider]

Dr. Midnight said:

I don't want any of my players reading this.

I assume you're one of his players? Sigh.

As for all the debate about the "harm" spell, I think that was more of an issue when the group felt like they were being attacked for being such stupid players. WE actually thought that our plan was innovative, and wanted to give it a shot.

I'm not sure quite what you mean here. Could you clarify?

 

[Schmoe]

I'm sorry that this whole issue became such a big deal.

I don't think it's that big a deal. A lot of people have just decided to scrutinize the campaign and the metagaming and DM decisions behind it, even when Dr. Midnight never asked for any advice in the area. Pretty typical, if you ask me.

Personally, I think Dr. Midnight should just take the advice here about how to get revenge with a Great Wyrm White Dragon, and you can all enjoy getting kicked around for a while. Seriously. No sarcasm intended. The game is a game after all.

Of course, Dr. Midnight will be sure to share the adventures and misadventures of the party when they happen...

Perhaps it is time for the Knights to take a break!

No way! You guys are having way too much fun to stop now.

 

[Ziona]

Every time you talk about the player of the lich cleric and his whiny attitude, I get angrier and angrier. Tell that guy to shut up already!

Does this ring a bell? THIS is what Xaltar means by us getting bashed.

Listen: it's a GAME. In this game, we as players, are allowed to make our own decisions. The DM should be prepared to accept the fact that PC's are not always going to be cookie-cutter and are not always going to follow the adventure the way it is planned or written. This has happened many times in Xaltar's campaigns (as he stated) and it's something the DM has to work around. Plain & simple.

I have to agree with HeavyG that the people posting here have gone WAY overboard in the advice that they have given Dr. Midnight. You were not there during the game session, so no matter what Doc decides to write up, you don't know what really happened. Yes, he told us OOG that the dragon was tough. But I recall him stating that he could think of no reason IN GAME to give our characters to not enter and fight the dragon. He even said that the half-dragon son of the White Wyrm had no reason NOT to go.

And another thing; you have all said that we, as a party, do not fear PC death or consequences. Doc has not written it in the stories, but my character has died on at least 2 occasions (past negative 30 or so) and Doc made the decision to have her stabilize at -5 (both times...) The same thing has happened to Dartan. Why? I don't know...because it sucks to lose characters? Because he's had so many PC deaths? Because it's not good for the story? Because he didn't realize that blow was a killing blow? You're guess is as good as mine.

So, why shouldn't we attack a super-tough Dragon? We had a plan that we thought was sound; we tried it; one member died, and we made a well-thought out hasty retreat.

As for Doc not asking for your opinion on this situation, will you please re-read the thread name for me...yeah, that's right...it says EVALUATE MY DMing! That doesn't mean bash the players or their decisions. Doc says we've been bad & that we're going to get spanked, and I think it's silly. We played our characters well, and we had a great, well-thought out plan. The goal in the module is to help a half-dragon take out his dad, and we found a way to get to our goal in half the time. Big deal. You're all so caught up in telling us we were over our head, but if the spell Harm was used by rules, we would have defeated the dragon two hours into the battle. Vek made the SR check (and that was a HUGELY DIFFICULT task I may add,) but the dragon was given a save. It could have taken SOME damage, but it didn't. House rule...fine. But don't say we were over our head when the DM made the decision during the battle that he was definetly going to use the house rule. He was wavering on whether or not he would ever actually use it, and when Vek said he didn't memorize Harm, Doc said he may have considered NOT using the save. When Vek realized he could sack Heal for Harm, Doc made his decision to use the save. End of story.

I'm not trying to attack Doc's DMing. I enjoy playing in his campaign, I like my character, and the PC's in the game. But this whole thread is silly. You're all complaining about Vek's whining and complaining, but Doc started a whole thread to complain about his players instead of addressing the issues with them. It's one thing to ask for some ideas or opinions, but it's another to say all these things and to think that the players weren't going to see this thread.

All I know is that I play D&D for fun, and when a game gets to be taken so seriously and things start getting taken personally, it's time to step away from it for awhile. Like Xaltar, I'm sorry that our enthusiasm upset Doc, and I'm sorry he was so "livid" and "beyond mad" that he had to create this thread. As far as the rest of you go, I couldn't care less what you have to say. You weren't there for the gaming session, and have no clue what actually happened.

 

[Schmoe]

As far as the rest of you go, I couldn't care less what you have to say. You weren't there for the gaming session, and have no clue what actually happened.

Ziona, I don't know if it came across that way, but this is essentially what I was trying to say. I've found that it is very difficult for people to offer constructive DMing advice on a particular situation when they didn't participate in that situation. Given that, I think comments about such are generally best ignored.

What we CAN offer advice on are tactics for a dragon to use, which happens to be something Dr. Midnight explicitly asked for. Hopefully his players (per his request) haven't been reading this thread, thereby spoiling any surprises that might lay in store for them.

 

[Wolfspider]

Does this ring a bell? THIS is what Xaltar means by us getting bashed.

Well, I certainly didn't mean to offend by my remark, but I can see now that it was harsh. I appologize. I was merely reacting to what Doc Midnight had said about his players pestering him about a decision that he made as DM. I don't know what REALLY goes around the gaming table when you guys get together. I just have to base my reactions on what is said here.

I will say that if you guys have been giving your DM flack over a decision that he made during the game, you need to do something a little more constructive than griping. You need to discuss this issue with him until you reach a mutually acceptable compromise, or you need to drop him as a DM if his interpretation of the rules is so different from yours.

As far as us going "way overboard" on our advice, we were just trying to provide Doc Midnight with as many options as possible based on what he had told us. I'm sorry if that offended you in some way. He asked for advice and we gave it based on what he told us. Some posters called for brutal tactics, others suggested something a bit more merciful. I think that you are the one who is taking this entire thread much too seriously. Most of us were just having a bit of gleeful fun coming up with nasty things for the dragon to do to your party.

One last thing. I have to say this because I really can't let it remain unsaid. I'm sorry if it offends you and the other players in Doc Midnight's campaign, but if it does it does. Although I don't think you have any right to be offended about this....

Anyway, the very first line that Doc Midnight posted in this thread read:

I don't want any of my players reading this.

At least two, and more than likely all, of his players have read this thread. That pretty much makes all EIGHT PAGES of advice here worthless. I guess that was your plan, eh? Reading this thread may have just saved your party from a major spanking. If so, then I hope you choke on this hollow victory.

Oh, you can say that you didn't read it all, but it's obvious that you have. (Even reading one post is one post too much if your DM has said for you not to.) By reading this thread you have broken the trust your DM had in you. You might as well have opened up his adventure notes and read them. In fact, that's exactly what you did. You should be ashamed of yourselves. He asked for your consideration and you threw it in his face. If I were your DM, I would throw all of you out on your butts and find a group of players I could actually trust.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!