D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

[nevin]

Or just lean into it and make D&D settings explicitly a LitRPG, with diegetic levels and XP and special abilities.

That wouldn't cause any controversy ever.

sure we can add Midi-Cloren's for magic users. makes topping off before the next fight much easier.

 

[TwoSix]

sure we can add Midi-Cloren's for magic users. makes topping off before the next fight much easier.

Bah, midichlorians are child's play. I want diegetic HUDs and health bars.

 

[nevin]

Bah, midichlorians are child's play. I want diegetic HUDs and health bars.

what do you think power's them?

 

[Zaukrie]

Sigh. It was a good thread

 

[Amrûnril]

It is easy to rewrite that one paragraph in the 2014 Players Handbook, and instead make 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, and Epic 21 the new RAW tiers.

Tiers come with in-world narrative implications.

• 1 − Student (college student, cop rookie, etcetera)
• 5 − Professional
• 9 − Master
• 13 − Grandmaster
• 17 − Legend
• 21 − Epic

Both the Bastion and the class designs can keep these narratives in mind when deciding the mechanics.

But a 5th level character isn't a mere professional in the PHB and DMG guidelines. A 5th level character is a hero of the realm, and while future printings could change this definition, I don't think they should. A 5th level character, after all, is someone who can face monsters beyond any that exist in the real world or singlehandedly defeat a group of trained warriors. Meanwhile, I'd argue that 13th level characters, with the ability to raise the dead or teleport instantly across the world, qualify as epic by any reasonable definition.

If the developers don't want 5th level characters to be heroes of the realm and 13th level characters to be epic heroes, then they should be looking at changes to ability progression, not just labeling. Personally, I'd actually prefer such a system, with more levels of customization for a given degree of power progression. If such a change isn't on the table though, D&D should continue to recognize 5th level characters as the powerful figures they are and should give them access to bastion features (if such figures are going to be level-gated) appropriate to that status.

 

[Yaarel]

But a 5th level character isn't a mere professional in the PHB and DMG guidelines. A 5th level character is a hero of the realm, and while future printings could change this definition, I don't think they should. A 5th level character, after all, is someone who can face monsters beyond any that exist in the real world or singlehandedly defeat a group of trained warriors. Meanwhile, I'd argue that 13th level characters, with the ability to raise the dead or teleport instantly across the world, qualify as epic by any reasonable definition.

If the developers don't want 5th level characters to be heroes of the realm and 13th level characters to be epic heroes, then they should be looking at changes to ability progression, not just labeling. Personally, I'd actually prefer such a system, with more levels of customization for a given degree of power progression. If such a change isn't on the table though, D&D should continue to recognize 5th level characters as the powerful figures they are and should give them access to bastion features (if such figures are going to be level-gated) appropriate to that status.

A level 5 police officer is experienced and competent to face dangers, and can be a hero in ones local realm

This is exactly what a Professional is.


The 2014 section describes tiers that are "Apprentice", "facing dangers", and "high above the ordinary". This is the same thing as Student, Professional, and Master. For example, the Master spellcaster at level 9 has a sudden uptick in game-changing power with slot-5 spells coming online, like Wall of Force and Teleportation Circle.

 

[R_J_K75]

The terminology of "special facility" causes confusion.

It would be more helpful to refer to "facility enhancements".

I'm just speculating but it's based on what I've read on these boards about 5E24. I have only read bits and pieces and skimmed other parts of the UA's to be transparent, but I do follow these threads to an extent but because I'm not extremely well versed in 5E to begin with at times I defer to those here who are. This revision seems to be unnecessarily changing terminology which is one reason why I haven't been following the playtest too much. In UA1 and UA2 I noticed that they seemed to be changing and adding new terms. I don't see how this is a revision if they are changing things like that. IMO opinion once you make me as a DM and the players at me table learn new terms, actions, spells, etc., that's a new edition. Adding the Bastion System into the core rules where there wasn't one in 2014 makes 2024 a new edition. Just my opinion

 

[R_J_K75]

The rules declare "special facilities" can't be bought for gold, and player characters can't add a "Stable" (with a capital S) to their Bastion prior to 9th level.

The problem is ultimately one of terminology. A "Stable" (with a capital S) is a rules object that has properties a stable (with a lower-case s) doesn't normally have. In the absence of any rules for running a stable (lower-case s), the only stables (lower-case s) we have rules for are "Stables" (capital S).

In my opinion, everything would be less confusing if special facility "Stables" (capitol S) were called something other than "Stables" (capitol S) (in the same way a holy avenger sword [with a lower-case s] is called something other than "Sword" [with a capitol S]).

Incidentally, I keep including the parenthetical references to capital and lower-case letters in my above statements because I have no idea if or how screen readers for the visually impaired distinguish between Stable (capital S) and stable (lower-case s). Currently, those two words, which differ only in capitalization, are treated differently in the rules.

I understand (E)xactly what you're saying because I'm not sure (e)xactly what they are trying to accomplish. All kidding aside, which I really wasn't kidding, but your post probably proved our points because it confused me. Now I'm of an altered mind state at the moment, but not so much that I can't read, comprehend, or type, so to have to work that hard to figure out what they're getting at seems like they're trying too hard. That was one thing that got me with the transition from 3x to 4E, for example they changed Attack of Opportunity to Opportunity Attack IIRC. Why? I will say that Im still intrigued as to what the finished core books will look like.

 

[Horwath]

Or just dump the MMO nonsense and run it like it works in the real world. If the stable owner is willing to sell and if the PC has money who the hell cares what thier level is.... Damned stupid supplement that will cause more problems than it solves.

This, like in previous editions with magic items, if you wanted to blow 90% of your gold on a single item, go ahead.
Good luck surviving with one area only covered.

If the party want's to hire archmage at level 4 and they have gold and there is one available and willing, why not?

It's the DMs fault that they have that much money.

Some magic buildings in Bastion can even spend a attunement slot if balance is a worry.

 

[Yaarel]

The core rules need a Bastion system − to represent home, hideout, business, fortress, school, ship, etcetera. It is useful for the Players Handbook in its Economy chapter with its Lifestyle, Equipment, Livestock, and Hirelings to also include a Bastion section for real estate development. Bastion can improve Lifestyle. Any Bastion can be a gold sink.

Magic is a normal part of D&D settings. Avoid mundane-only options. Bastions like extradimensional Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion are appropriate in the Players Handbook. So is hiring spellcasters to construct a Bastion speedily and alter it magically. To bind a Protection from Evil effect to a Bastion can be standard even at the level-1 tier. There is a reason why Vampires cant enter homes unless invited. The same can apply to Fey and Astral creatures. Access to the Teleportation Circle of a Bastion is likewise standard at the level-9 tier. Generally magic from spells are fine in the Players Handbook, even when a "Bastion" is able to have them with an enduring duration resembling Permanency.

Gate the political influence that a Bastion implies, by tier. I now use the formula 10 ^ (1+level / 2) to determine Fame. So, at level 9 (= 10^5) the character is influential to about 100,000 persons. This can mean the mayor of a town, a successful local business, a feared villain, or whatever the character concept is.

The "special enhancements" that grant the creation or discovery of magic items can be in the DMs Guide as variant rules for a Bastion. The magic item rules need to motivate adventures. There can be quests to find special magical ingredients to create one, quests to acquire one elsewhere, or quests to undertake an adventure that the use of a magic item implies. Perhaps all Bastion-created magic items are Sentient, with a personal relationship with its creator, the Bastion owner. Or perhaps, the item can be an extension of its creator, who imbues a part of ones soul into the item, thus becoming remotely present wherever the item is to some degree. Magic items created via "special" rules can be distinctively flavorful.