D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

[Yaarel]

Except those aren't the RAW tiers either.
5e is explicit about when the tiers are. The Bastian rules aren't a backdoor way to change the rest of the system

It is easy to rewrite that one paragraph in the 2014 Players Handbook, and instead make 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, and Epic 21 the new RAW tiers.

Tiers come with in-world narrative implications.

• 1 − Student (college student, cop rookie, etcetera)
• 5 − Professional
• 9 − Master
• 13 − Grandmaster
• 17 − Legend
• 21 − Epic

Both the Bastion and the class designs can keep these narratives in mind when deciding the mechanics.

 

[bedir than]

It is easy to rewrite that one paragraph in the 2014 Players Handbook, and instead make 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, and Epic 21 the new RAW tiers.

Then you also need to rewrite certain spells, cantrips power levels and extra attack.

 

[Yaarel]

Then you also need to rewrite certain spells, cantrips power levels and extra attack.

It sometimes makes more sense to have more powerful mechanics at a higher tier.

Strictly speaking, it isnt necessary to change any mechanics. Even tho cantrips might be annoying when they dont scale smoothly according to Feats and Proficiency Bonuses, that is tolerable if necessary for the gaming math. If the gaming math can handle an extra cantrip damage die improvement at the highest tiers, then the cantrips should do that anyway.

Spells are currently imbalanced, with many spells being subpar for their slot level. As the designers comb thru the spells to beef up the wanting spells, all of the spells will merit their slot, and the power of slots will scale smoothly while advancing in levels. A few spells might be overpowered and need a nerf, but they are rare and known. Therefore, the spell slots will also follow the rhythm of the 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17 tiers.

 

[Yaarel]

I didn't read the UA8, I just skimmed it and when I saw it was 22 pages I didn't bother. So, is that what it said? If so, this is terribly misleading to new DMs at least, hilarious at best. 9th level stable master? Who is he, Iceberg Slim? Are they really saying that a PC with skills in 5Es equivalent of Animal Handling, Animal Training and survival skills need to be 9th level to run a stable, plant a geranium, or farm or pig pen? I could see a new DM inferring from this that each barkeep, stableboy, etc. is "x" level and not just a 0-3 level NPC. Just seems like more system than is needed and trying to explain it too much won't be beneficial and only lead to more questions. Sometimes the individual groups need to make it up themselves.

The terminology of "special facility" causes confusion.

It would be more helpful to refer to "facility enhancements".

 

[Kinematics]

I'd agree with the idea of getting rid of Bastion Points, and gating based on gold does seem like a decent approach, though it would take a lot of time to really figure out the details. We wouldn't want it to be too overly-finicky.

I've run an experimental build of a Bastion (a residence growing into a manor house), and I'm now thinking my earlier ideas of stacking facilities into progressing tiers isn't really needed, though some basic growth in functionality within each facility might be useful.

So my current thought: You start off with 4 basic facilities (3 roomy, 1 cramped) that you can design as you wish. You can then spend gold to buy more basic facilities, or upgrade a basic facility to a special facility, with the amount you spend determining what benefits you gain from it.

As a spitball approximation (based on the Level Up wealth progression table), I'd look at the cost of developing the special features of the facilities as something like:

Level 5: 500 GP
Level 9: 2,500 GP
Level 13: 8,000 GP
Level 17: 30,000 GP

For example, you might start your Bastion from a broken-down inn. You make one of the rooms and maybe a kitchen functional for personal use, and clean up the bar and stable to act as special facilities (500 GP each).

Then the bar can get the UA Storehouse functionality (essentially 50 GP earned per week of operation), while the stable helps keep your mounts healthy. (Heal injuries, temp HP, faster travel pace for the next week? Figure out a few minor benefits.)

If you pay to upgrade them at level 9, the stable gets the benefit of properly training your mounts (advantage on Animal Handling checks) and a professional reputation that allows you to buy and sell mounts for a profit. The pub, meanwhile, starts attracting "regulars" that act as the start of an information network.

In general, special facilities should be able to keep performing their function, regardless of whether you're there to give orders. The pub keeps running and making money even when you're out of town. This is partly because I'm assuming no Bastion Points, and partly because you paid to get the special facility, so it shouldn't be spending a lot of its time non-functional.

That wouldn't apply for things like research actions, of course, since the point of that is you having something specific you want information on, and if you're not there, you can't easily tell them. (Unless there's some sort of "communication" facility or upgrade.)


With no Bastion Points, there's no "free" magic items or resurrection. However there should be facilities that can craft magic items (common/uncommon/rare/very rare at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, respectively), and maybe a small temple that can provide a periodic no-cost resurrection (you still have to get your body there, though).

 

[Yaarel]

I'd agree with the idea of getting rid of Bastion Points, and gating based on gold does seem like a decent approach, though it would take a lot of time to really figure out the details. We wouldn't want it to be too overly-finicky.

I've run an experimental build of a Bastion (a residence growing into a manor house), and I'm now thinking my earlier ideas of stacking facilities into progressing tiers isn't really needed, though some basic growth in functionality within each facility might be useful.

So my current thought: You start off with 4 basic facilities (3 roomy, 1 cramped) that you can design as you wish. You can then spend gold to buy more basic facilities, or upgrade a basic facility to a special facility, with the amount you spend determining what benefits you gain from it.

As a spitball approximation (based on the Level Up wealth progression table), I'd look at the cost of developing the special features of the facilities as something like:

Level 5: 500 GP
Level 9: 2,500 GP
Level 13: 8,000 GP
Level 17: 30,000 GP

For example, you might start your Bastion from a broken-down inn. You make one of the rooms and maybe a kitchen functional for personal use, and clean up the bar and stable to act as special facilities (500 GP each).

Then the bar can get the UA Storehouse functionality (essentially 50 GP earned per week of operation), while the stable helps keep your mounts healthy. (Heal injuries, temp HP, faster travel pace for the next week? Figure out a few minor benefits.)

If you pay to upgrade them at level 9, the stable gets the benefit of properly training your mounts (advantage on Animal Handling checks) and a professional reputation that allows you to buy and sell mounts for a profit. The pub, meanwhile, starts attracting "regulars" that act as the start of an information network.

In general, special facilities should be able to keep performing their function, regardless of whether you're there to give orders. The pub keeps running and making money even when you're out of town. This is partly because I'm assuming no Bastion Points, and partly because you paid to get the special facility, so it shouldn't be spending a lot of its time non-functional.

That wouldn't apply for things like research actions, of course, since the point of that is you having something specific you want information on, and if you're not there, you can't easily tell them. (Unless there's some sort of "communication" facility or upgrade.)


With no Bastion Points, there's no "free" magic items or resurrection. However there should be facilities that can craft magic items (common/uncommon/rare/very rare at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, respectively), and maybe a small temple that can provide a periodic no-cost resurrection (you still have to get your body there, though).

I generally like where you are going with this.

Without looking at details in detail, here are some broad view considerations.

A Bastion can start at level 1. At this level it is entirely regular facilities.

A character can spend gp freely to build up any regular facility − including realestate size and any furnishings, like taps for a bar and stables for horses, and any hirelings to run them − using the normal rules in the economy section of the Players Handbook.

What the Bastion system offers is the "special" enhancements to any of the facilities of a Bastion. These "specials" are gated by tiers, and include social influence and magic items (or perhaps adventures to acquire specific magic items).

The special enhancements are gated by tier.

I uncertain if a character should be able to buy additional special enhancements, by using gp.

Certainly, the character can use gp to build up any regular facilities, including a vast palace, pirate ship, secret hideout, whatever.

 

[nevin]

Or just dump the MMO nonsense and run it like it works in the real world. If the stable owner is willing to sell and if the PC has money who the hell cares what thier level is.... Damned stupid supplement that will cause more problems than it solves.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or just dump the MMO nonsense and run it like it works in the real world. If the stable owner is willing to sell and if the PC has money who the hell cares what thier level is.... Damned stupid supplement that will cause more problems than it solves.

Yeah. This whole bastion thing is one of the most relentlessly gamist constructs WotC has ever produced. It doesn't even really pretend to be connected to the setting in anything but the most tenuous sense.

 

[Epic Meepo]

I didn't read the UA8, I just skimmed it and when I saw it was 22 pages I didn't bother. So, is that what it said? If so, this is terribly misleading to new DMs at least, hilarious at best. 9th level stable master? Who is he, Iceberg Slim? Are they really saying that a PC with skills in 5Es equivalent of Animal Handling, Animal Training and survival skills need to be 9th level to run a stable, plant a geranium, or farm or pig pen? I could see a new DM inferring from this that each barkeep, stableboy, etc. is "x" level and not just a 0-3 level NPC. Just seems like more system than is needed and trying to explain it too much won't be beneficial and only lead to more questions. Sometimes the individual groups need to make it up themselves.

The rules declare "special facilities" can't be bought for gold, and player characters can't add a "Stable" (with a capital S) to their Bastion prior to 9th level.

The problem is ultimately one of terminology. A "Stable" (with a capital S) is a rules object that has properties a stable (with a lower-case s) doesn't normally have. In the absence of any rules for running a stable (lower-case s), the only stables (lower-case s) we have rules for are "Stables" (capital S).

In my opinion, everything would be less confusing if special facility "Stables" (capitol S) were called something other than "Stables" (capitol S) (in the same way a holy avenger sword [with a lower-case s] is called something other than "Sword" [with a capitol S]).

Incidentally, I keep including the parenthetical references to capital and lower-case letters in my above statements because I have no idea if or how screen readers for the visually impaired distinguish between Stable (capital S) and stable (lower-case s). Currently, those two words, which differ only in capitalization, are treated differently in the rules.

 

[TwoSix]

Or just dump the MMO nonsense and run it like it works in the real world. If the stable owner is willing to sell and if the PC has money who the hell cares what thier level is.... Damned stupid supplement that will cause more problems than it solves.

Or just lean into it and make D&D settings explicitly a LitRPG, with diegetic levels and XP and special abilities.

That wouldn't cause any controversy ever.