Beguiler and High Level Play

[satori01]

I do not think the Beguiler is suitable for high level play.
Do not get me wrong, I like the class, and have been hoping to see a class like this since the Warmage in Complete Arcane.

Unfortunately the spell list of the Beguiler consists almost entirely of the Enchantment and Illusion schools of magic, and no mechanical class means to overcome the effect of these three spells:

1) Protection from Evil
2) True seeing
3) Mind Blank

That is all you need, to turn a high level Beguiliar into, essentially, a high level Expert. Factor in Undead and other creatures unaffected by Mind Influencing powers, and being just an "Expert" will be a likely feeling.

Personaly I think there either needs to be a class abillity usable a limited amount of times per day, or specifically made spells, that allow Illusions and Enchantments to effect creatures protected against them by the above. 3 spells should not wipe out a whole character concept and 2 schools of magic.

I would also put onto the spell list Prismatic Spray and Prismatic Wall.
This would give the Beguiler some direct muscle at high level and harkens back to the 1e Illusionist.

 

[Ciaran]

By that standard, undead opponents turn a high level Rogue into, essentially, a high level Expert.

 

[Seeten]

invisible opponents make my fighter an expert.

 

[Shayuri]

I am torn, personally. On the one hand, I love Beguilers, and chomp on the bit to play one.

On the other, you have a point.

That said, only the Big Four primary casters have easy access to True Sight and Mind Blank, and Protection from Evil...while warding from continuing control like Charm and Domination...isn't much help against many of the other spells in a Beguiler's arsenal. It may just be that Primary Casters are the Beguiler's buggaboo...much like elementals or undead are a rogue's, or a monk is for most casters.

After all, the Evil Archmage may be Mind Blanked...but did he Mind Blank his faithful Black Knight servant? If so, the spell he's using to block you could have been used to launch another Horrid Wilting. Forcing your foes to blow high level slots on countermeasures isn't a waste of time.

And if he didn't...then you can turn his lackeys against him, which is also fun.

 

[Mistwell]

I do not think the Beguiler is suitable for high level play.
Do not get me wrong, I like the class, and have been hoping to see a class like this since the Warmage in Complete Arcane.

Unfortunately the spell list of the Beguiler consists almost entirely of the Enchantment and Illusion schools of magic, and no mechanical class means to overcome the effect of these three spells:

1) Protection from Evil
2) True seeing
3) Mind Blank

That is all you need, to turn a high level Beguiliar into, essentially, a high level Expert. Factor in Undead and other creatures unaffected by Mind Influencing powers, and being just an "Expert" will be a likely feeling.

Personaly I think there either needs to be a class abillity usable a limited amount of times per day, or specifically made spells, that allow Illusions and Enchantments to effect creatures protected against them by the above. 3 spells should not wipe out a whole character concept and 2 schools of magic.

I would also put onto the spell list Prismatic Spray and Prismatic Wall.
This would give the Beguiler some direct muscle at high level and harkens back to the 1e Illusionist.

I think you are making a sweeping generalization without actually looking carefully at the actual spells on the Beguiler list. Most of the protections you mention would not apply to a great deal of their spells and abilities.

Not to mention I think you could make a decent Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage, and then your "I ignore your illusion" defenses will hurt you more than help you.

 

[JoelF]

Also, Protection from Evil isn't quite the full protection you make it out to be. It only protects from "enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsions) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)." This means that there's lots of spells (which I assume could be on the Beguiler list - I don't have the PHII yet) such as command, greater command, confusion, feeblemind, etc. which aren't stopped by Protection from Evil.

You still have a point with Mind Blank and True Seeing, but as has been stated, only the primary casters are likely to have these spells, not all of their supporters.

 

[satori01]

From your list above only Feeblemind is on the Beguiler spell list.

This month's 30 year anniversary issue of Dragon, lists Mind Blank as a much have spell. It went even so far as to say when you can cast the spell you should just permanetly consider yourself one spell slot short to account for casting the spell everyday.

A wizard can cast it at level 15. What will a Beguiler do against
a high level lich, say the climatic big bad.
Undead ruin a Beguiler's day worse than a Rogue. A Rogue can still fight, a max 2 weapon fighting Rogue with Weapon Finessed Undead Bane Weapons can still do a lot of damage. Even more a Rogue with a Wand of Gravestrike can still get in some sneak attack.

While I love the concept, think of what it would be like to play the Age of Worms endgame modules as a Beguiler.
Time Stop, Etherealness, Mass Invisibility, would be the spell order of the day. Does it seem a little sad, that at upper levels, the character becomes dependent on Use Magic Device, to be able to effect a wide range of Monster/ NPC types?

Mistwell, citing a Prestige Class from Races of Stone, that many people (yourself included, I believe) find to be a bit unbalanced does not seem to be a very reassuring argument. I'm not sure if I would play a class if it was explicity stated: "yeah to really enjoy the class you have to be a Gnome, with the Spell Focus Illusion feat and take this other Prestige Class."

 

[Mistwell]

Mistwell, citing a Prestige Class from Races of Stone, that many people (yourself included, I believe) find to be a bit unbalanced does not seem to be a very reassuring argument. I'm not sure if I would play a class if it was explicity stated: "yeah to really enjoy the class you have to be a Gnome, with the Spell Focus Illusion feat and take this other Prestige Class."

I don't think your charactization of what I said is particularly fair actually.

As for Mind Blank...dispel magic still works on it, doesn't it? And it's not like all of the Beguiler's spells are mind affecting. Heck, what exactly is your Mind Blanked lich going to do against the invisible, disguised, silent-casting, greater-mirror image, covered and hidden Beguiler anyway? Particularly since your Lich will be in a solid fog, with a phantom battle, surrounded by a legion of sentinels, in a Vertigo field and zone of silence?

If your point is that it will take more finesse and subtle tactics to play a high level Beguiler, then I agree with you. But then, it's supposed to be for an advanced player who can handle that sort of thing I think.

 

[Piratecat]

Is greater dispel magic on the beguiler's spell list? If so, I have a fewer worries.

 

[Question]

I don't think your charactization of what I said is particularly fair actually.

As for Mind Blank...dispel magic still works on it, doesn't it? And it's not like all of the Beguiler's spells are mind affecting. Heck, what exactly is your Mind Blanked lich going to do against the invisible, disguised, silent-casting, greater-mirror image, covered and hidden Beguiler anyway? Particularly since your Lich will be in a solid fog, with a phantom battle, surrounded by a legion of sentinels, in a Vertigo field and zone of silence?

If your point is that it will take more finesse and subtle tactics to play a high level Beguiler, then I agree with you. But then, it's supposed to be for an advanced player who can handle that sort of thing I think.

What has the lich been doing for the past 10+ rounds it takes the beguiler to cast those?