D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian Fix?

[MindxKiller]

Except that's only an argument so you can try to compare apples to apples.
There are other great feats out there which a Berzerker could take which don't overlap with and semi-obsolete Frenzy but which can't be compared mathematically as easily - Sentinel, Martial Adept, Resilient.

Actually Sentinel does overlap with Retaliation, and Martial Adept is a horrible feat, but yes, resilient is a good one. That still doesn't address the fact that without GWM you're going to be outclassed at the one thing you're built to do. Nor the fact that even with GWM you barely do 7 more dpr than the alternative PM barb, yet you take a significant penalty to do so. The whole point of the barbarian is to be an incredibly durable damage machine, yet if you go berserker you're less durable and less damaging than a totem barb polearm master.

 

[Eejit]

Actually Sentinel does overlap with Retaliation, and Martial Adept is a horrible feat, but yes, resilient is a good one. That still doesn't address the fact that without GWM you're going to be outclassed at the one thing you're built to do. Nor the fact that even with GWM you barely do 7 more dpr than the alternative PM barb, yet you take a significant penalty to do so. The whole point of the barbarian is to be an incredibly durable damage machine, yet if you go berserker you're less durable and less damaging than a totem barb polearm master.

Sentinel is synergistic with Retaliation - each gives you non-overlapping ways to use your reaction as well as Sentinel buffing Retaliation by allowing it to drop you attacker's move speed to zero when you use it. Of course you can also get Sentinel long before level 14, but even when you have both the combo is great.

Frenzy isn't the comparison for Bear Totem damage resistance, Mindless Rage is. That's pretty even; magic damage resistance vs immunity to charm and fear.

Like I said, I believe it's distorting the discussion to focus everything on DPR comparisons even though they're the easiest ones to make.

Both routes work. Totem with GWM/PM for damage and damage res, but no stickiness. Berserker with Sentinel for a bit less damage and damage res, but superb stickiness.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well I mean if you want to disagree with math, you're certainly welcome to your opinion.

No. Actually I do know math very well and and I disagree with way you try to abuse it by making assumptions that are not universally true. I have done the same calculations and I do interpret them differwntly than you.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well then let me throw this out to you, instead of using the most favorable of calculations for the no feat barbarian, how about the level 20 comparison against that same AC target, where the featless barbarian does 31 dpr, and 46 while frenzied and caps out at 62 dpr when frenzied AND making his reaction attack. Meanwhile the barbarian with feats does 57 dpr, and 77 dpr for the round that he procs his PM reaction attack (which is fairly often.) I cannot fathom how you people balk at the idea that not using feats makes you substantially worse than those who do. 31 dpr compared to 57 dpr is pretty laughable, and when that berserker goes all out, he BARELY eeks out 5 dpr more than what the barbarian with feats does 24/7/365. Not to mention the barbarian with feats also gets an incredibly reliable reaction attack too, which then makes him even better than the frenzied berserker, except he can do it all day long with no penalties. You need feats to compete with those who have them, its inescapable.

Oh at level 20 I surely have GWM. No disagreement here. I believe polearm mastery gets more or less redundant here. Maybe I get savage attacker if I really do want to increase damage at all costs. Maybe I take charger which is usually not worth it but may help me get into position for another attack to stay in frenzy.

 

[MindxKiller]

No. Actually I do know math very well and and I disagree with way you try to abuse it by making assumptions that are not universally true. I have done the same calculations and I do interpret them differwntly than you.

There is 0 abuse of math anywhere in my statements, I have no idea where you're pulling that from. But sure, if you want to just ignore all empirical evidence, I'm not going to stop you since it's become abundantly clear you're going to keep refusing to see facts laid out before you. Good day.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Now your evidence is just empirical and next time it will be anecdotical. I have laid out the facts and told you why I know it is not as bad for the standard barbarian as you claim. You may be able to calculate but that does not make your calculations right. Each model has to have a reality check in the end and the bereserker barbarian works fine, although he is a 5 damage behind inyour vakuum.

 

[Greg Benage]

I think PAM and GWM together are a bit unbalanced, but aside from that, I think berserker is pretty even with totem after level 6. Reason is, mindless rage is about even with bear damage resistance -- if I'm playing a barbarian, he cares more about fear and charm than resistance to, what, maybe 20-25% of the damage taken in the game? It's just hit points, which the barbarian has a lot of. Fear and charm shuts him down and usually ends his rage. And then frenzy, even if it's just a 1/day DPR turbocharger, is better than the 6th level totem abilities. They're both 'meh' at 10th level and great at 14th.

PAM + GWM is the only feat I'm tempted to tweak. Maybe just not have the -5/+10 apply to the bonus action attack. It's just a little too good IMO.

 

[devincutler]

I think PAM and GWM together are a bit unbalanced, but aside from that, I think berserker is pretty even with totem after level 6. Reason is, mindless rage is about even with bear damage resistance -- if I'm playing a barbarian, he cares more about fear and charm than resistance to, what, maybe 20-25% of the damage taken in the game? It's just hit points, which the barbarian has a lot of. Fear and charm shuts him down and usually ends his rage. And then frenzy, even if it's just a 1/day DPR turbocharger, is better than the 6th level totem abilities. They're both 'meh' at 10th level and great at 14th.

PAM + GWM is the only feat I'm tempted to tweak. Maybe just not have the -5/+10 apply to the bonus action attack. It's just a little too good IMO.

The problem with PAM and GWM is simply that you have a set of weapons for which both apply, and the rest don't. That's it. This means, by definition, those that apply to both are markedly better than those that are not.

I house ruled that any weapon that applies to PAM does not apply to GWM. Problem solved. Now pole arms have their own unique feat, and heavy weapons that are not pole arms have their own different unique feat. Each weapon category now has its advantages and disadvantages and now there is an actual choice to make.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes. Same problem with hand xbow and 2 feats. one with bonus attack and one with -5/+10. I would not want to nerf it too hard though, as until you are sitting at 20 Str it is not too problematic.
I am just not sure how to nerf it in a way that makes it still worthwhile. I thought about losing proficiency bonus to hit. Adding double your proficiency bonus to damage. But at high levels that exaggerates the problem. Maybe a simple: the bonus damage may not be higher than the maximum of the damage roll (without modifiers) will nerf the feat hard enough. We used to have a rule in ADnD similar to this, because otherwise darts were the most dangerous weapons in the hands of a fighter.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The sharpshooter feat needs some more nerfs. +10 damage on 600ft on a d8 weapon is problematic on its own. Although of course a bow would sit at -5/+8 which seems a little more balanced already.