D&D 5E Best Gish

[XMorsX]

It needs to be a spell of level 1 or higter to charge yoer ward...

.

Nondetection becomes a cantrip since you cast it at will with Svirfneblin Magic, but it is still a third lvl spell. Maybe I should have wrote it clearer.

The ward indeed charges slowly without "cheating". It is not a bad ability still, but nothing to aim for either. The Svirfneblin Magic or the warlock dip are the ways to "exploit" it for above average results.

 

[bid]

You can get the invocation for mage armor too, no concentration there either.

Yes, with Dex10 that's AC13. Even better!

 

[Kithas]

Yes, with Dex10 that's AC13. Even better!

Have a better dex? (with a shield that's still a base 15 btw)

Nondetection becomes a cantrip since you cast it at will with Svirfneblin Magic, but it is still a third lvl spell. Maybe I should have wrote it clearer.

The ward indeed charges slowly without "cheating". It is not a bad ability still, but nothing to aim for either. The Svirfneblin Magic or the warlock dip are the ways to "exploit" it for above average results.

That does seem to work RAW. Probably not intended so tread carefully, the invocation for mage armor would also work albeit slower. In combat it will still recharge glacially slowly. Good find!

 

[Sezarious]

Yes, with Dex10 that's AC13. Even better!

Hmm, yeah, that's a valid point for a strength based warmage... Plus the heavy armor issue mentioned before is also a problem. Mmm... Can't go a dex warmage with this setup. Can't max out dex without having at least 13 strength for barbarian levels. Can't afford additional dex with current stats without compromising constitution or one of the primaries.

Hmm, maybe Warlock 12 and Paladin 8 would be best. You'll have some decent healing ability and smites etc, plus aura of protection.

The last option if you want a barb build is to go with dex and cha as your primaries, get strength to 11, then use an ASI to increase it once before taking barb levels:

(Human) Dual wielder
(4th) 4 levels in, say fighter - +2Dex
(8th) 4 levels in Warlock - +2Str
(13th) 1lv in Warlock, then 4 in barb - +2Dex
(16th) 3lvs in Warlock - +2Cha
(20th) 4lvs in Warlock - +2Cha

Starting AC would be 17 (18 with AC fighting style +1). With half-plate becomes 18 (19 with AC fighting style +1) - dual wield rapiers (finesse, 1d8 p)
(Optional: Swap Dual wielder for Medium armor master for effectively +1AC and stealth benefits.

OR, use mage armor when you get invocations (Dex 18 + dual weidler AC bonus) 13+4+1=18 (19 with fighting style), becomes 19 or 20 by 13th lv.

The only penalty with this build is you will not benefit from the strength based damage bonus of a rage, but, you will still be a tank.

 

[LightningArrow]

This is an infinite debate: what is a gish? A guy that can cast and hit? A guy that can cast and get in the fray without fear? A guy that can hit hard thanks to magic?

Anyway, here are a few not-so talked about options:

- Fighter 5 (or 6)/Lore Bard X: Heavy armor proficiency, all the fighter goodness, Extra Attack. Apart from the loss of spells, better than Valor, IMO.
- Eldritch Knight 11/Wizard X: Three attacks. Eldritch Strike is massive for save-or-suck spells. For ranged and melee alike.

 

[Ovarwa]

Mine, for D&D5: A gish is a character who can cast spells, counting only those granted by class features that provide access to both a spell list and spell slots, but whose usual action in combat is to attack with a weapon or natural weapon. A 'good' gish is one who can act effectively in this manner, and survive the consequences. A great gish is one who is just as awesome to have as an optimized non-gish, at any level actually played.

 

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

So, as wizard you have amazing spells to control enemies or battlefield or inflict damage, but you will burn your slots with shield and shield of faith only to survive in melee? Bumping your Dex before your Int or delaying that with feats to survive? And your damage isn't even as good as any melee class. Now you don't have the best part of the wizard or the best part of a melee fighter.

I would say that this is dangerously close to a definition of "gish."

I mean, suppose I started with two levels in fighter and then went into wizard. It would cost me two spell slots at first level, three at second, four at third, four and fourth, and three at fifth, to say nothing of the setbacks in spell level, spells in spellbook, spell preparations, and number of cantrips. What's more, the spell slots I would lose would be the highest level slots, whereas spell slots used to cast shield and absorb elements are always first level.

In other words, virtually any gish trades spell slots for melee capabilities. All I'm saying is that I want to be on the castier end of the spectrum, using reactions to shift the action economy in my side's favor. Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread any further, so I'll cut out, do some math on potential builds, and start another topic if I feel the need.

Thanks, Kithas, for sharing your experience of playing an abjurer.

 

[Kithas]

Thanks, Kithas, for sharing your experience of playing an abjurer.

To be clear I never played an abjurer in a campaign. While working on my curront character I wanted to make a mage tank. Abjurer was the first build I tried, I ran him through some testing and found the ward unattractive because of the recharge time. I remade him as an evocation wiz and it tested pretty well. What I ended up noticing was that the spell Blur made him so difficult to hit that I rarely needed shield and had enough hp that absorb elements didnt get used much either, which meant I had mich more room for fun damage things. What I ended up with is Jiemba, currently 2tempest cleric/3 storw sorcerer, as a hill dwarf so no speed penalty in my chain and I dont have a weapon so im not sure he qualifies as a gish. But he is definitely tanky, 18ac and 50hp at 5, next level Ill have a 20 in con. And the damage is wonderful I have to be careful with my resources but Im easily doing more than my fair share in combat.
Playing him has brought up some interesting questions wten I look at gishes. Namely is it worth using a weapon? If part of your class makes that better than using cantrips for damage then go for it, otherwise dont feel like you have to.

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

To be clear I never played an abjurer in a campaign. While working on my curront character I wanted to make a mage tank...What I ended up with is Jiemba, currently 2tempest cleric/3 storw sorcerer, as a hill dwarf so no speed penalty in my chain and I dont have a weapon so im not sure he qualifies as a gish.

For my mage tank, I went with VHuman Fighter 1/Fiend Tomelock 3/Red (or Gold if you're good) Draconic Sorc X in that order of level progression so far. I took the Mobile feat to mitigate the speed penalty, so that I could dump Str and have Dex 14 for better initiative. The pseudo-Disengage also helps out for when enemies get too close with a rapier-using GFB. Otherwise, I'm rocking my +2 RoPK and Hex+Eldritch Spamming, with the occasional Quickened Scorching Ray for beefier opponents. Before taking the bonuses from my magic items into consideration, I'm at 21 AC with plate, shield, and Defense FS. Factor in the Cloak of Protection that I traded for and the +1 on my shield, I'm at 23 AC. Once I DM 7 DDAL/DDEX modules this season, I'll grab a Ring of Protection and be up to 24 AC. Like Jiemba, Z. H. Darkstar is more mage tank than gish, but I do have a weapon option in my back pocket for when the need arises.

Playing him has brought up some interesting questions wten I look at gishes. Namely is it worth using a weapon? If part of your class makes that better than using cantrips for damage then go for it, otherwise dont feel like you have to.

For the most part, I agree with you. This was especially true for the first two seasons. Fortunately thanks to the SCAG cantrips, you can do both roughly equally these days. Here's what Darkstar's non-resource-draining damage options are at 10th level:

Ranged = Eldritch Blast: +9 to hit, (1d10+4)*2 force damage = avg 19 damage
Melee = GFB: +5 to hit, 1d8+2 piercing damge & 1d8+4 fire damage = avg 15 damage
Save-or-hit = Sacred Flame/Vicious Mockery: Dex/Wis DC 17, 2d8/2d4 radiant/psychic damage = avg 9/5 damage

Because of Bounded Accuracy and my RoPK, I've had to rely less on SF/VM these days. Instead, I bust them out when I'm either trying to take advantage of a vulnerability to radiant damage, want the rider effect of VM, or are in a situation where I have disadvantage on my attack rolls.

Now that I've got Elemental Affinity, I'm debating on what I should do for 11th-13th levels. Should I stay the course of my original level progression posted above or take more levels of Warlock? The former keeps me on track for capping out at 8th level Sorc spells at 19th level, granted that most of the spells that I'm taking via Sorc are non-concentration utility spells. The latter caps me at 7th level Sorc spells and 13 SP per long rest at 20th level but bumps my Warlock slots to 3rd level (yielding 2 more SP per short rest), increases Fireball DC +2 by taking the Warlock version, gives me another Eldritch Invocation (Devil's Sight), and grants the extra 1d10 per short rest on an ability check (initiative, which is currently +4) or saving throw (Dex/Wis/Int, which are currently +2/+1/+1 but will be +3/+2/+2 by end of season) via Dark One's Own Luck.

 

[Knight_Marshal]

What would be a good wizard school for a Human Fighter1/Wizard 2 for AL play? Right now I am taking Abjurer, but i am not sure how well I would be able to keep the ward going between long rests. I use a flail with a shield and have GFB and Lightning Lure along with Chill Touch for attack spells.