D&D 5E Blade Pact Warlocks and Conventional Wisdom

[Lanliss]

For that, we'd need to understand what it's trying to accomplish. Personally, I see the warlock as a damage dealer, because the only thing that the class can do reliably is casting eldritch blast (or attacking, in the case of the bladelock). In that sense, I think a very small adjustment that could go a long way into making the bladelock an equal to its eldritch blast-casting counterpart would be adding haste to their spell list. Casting haste improves defense, damage and mobility, three areas in which the bladelock is lacking, without making any structural change to the class. If I had a player willing to try it in my game, I'd certainly allow it. You could also add the following invocation:

One With the Sword
Prerequisite: 7th Level
You can choose one of the following fighting styles: Defense, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, or Two-Weapon Fighting.

I believe this could be more dangerous than adding haste to their spell list (the system already has to deal with the possibility of someone else hasting your warlock), but appears to be harmless at first glance. Adding this invocation could help a lot with the MAD problem, adding 2 damage to a rapier-wielding bladelock or +Dex to a dual-wielding one (or somehow compensating the str build for the fact that it will probably have to go MAD).

These are just some ideas from the top of my head, though. I just believe the concept is fun and should get the options to stay on equal footing with the eldritch blasting warlock.

To be fair, the system already has to deal with Bladelocks with Fighting styles, through a single level multi class. I actually have a similar Invocation for my Cleric Homebrew, giving War Clerics access to the Paladin Fighting Style list, so I think it should be fine.

 

[dco]

Hex is just so useful, but at lower levels you are probably better off casting Armor of Agathys instead of Hex. At higher levels, when your Con save is high enough to make a DC 10 check automatically (or nearly automatically), and you get two attacks, and Hex can be maintain for 8+ hours - at that point Hex becomes a better choice.

Fiendish Vigor/False life is a good choice for the early levels, it really helps supplement Armor of Agathys - either giving you time to cast it in combat, or and additional source of temps after it goes down. Or just because you have a lot of combats between rests and you can't keep Armor of Agathys up all the time.

But you will want to trade it out eventually (probably around 5th or 6th level, when you get the invocation that gives you two attacks with your pact weapon).

You need to improve your CON stat and the warlock doesn't have proficiency with CON saves, it works well if you stay behind casting eldritch blast but that's not the purpose of the bladelock.
I don't know, my experience was that I killed a lot of enemies that could give me temporary hit points while armor of agathys was still working, false life could still be useful for those times you are ot of THP and combat, but there are also other good invocations that give you mage armor, disguise self or ilusions at will, extra damage with eldritch balst, darksight, etc.

No, but other tanking classes have actual abilities that punish enemies for choosing to attack someone else. I'd say this is the basic principle of tanking: if you cannot punish enemies for attacking someone else, then you're not tanking, you just have high chances of surviving.
...
...While you struggle, fellow wizard cycles through magic missiles, scorching rays and fireballs, and still has 2d10 fire damage to boot, if anything else fails. If I was an evil monster, you'd have to show me more than hit points in order to make me pick you instead of that friend.

He could pick scorching ray or fireball, or cast an enhanced eldritch blast and resot to the blade when the enemies come, or suggestions, charms, crown of madness, etc for crowd control which is a more effective way of "tanking".

I've really enjoyed this exercise because I hadn't looked too closely at Blade-locks before, and I can see how they work now. I still think they're deficient as a class, but not as badly as before. I'd say my main beefs are-

1. Seriously Bad MAD. Blade lock is clearly a melee build, so you need good CON for HP and making Concentration checks, good DEX or STR for making your pact weapon attacks worthwhile, and good CHR for spellcasting.

2. Awful AC. I realize that some abilities (like Hellish Rebuke and Armor of Agathys) trigger off of being hit, but lets be real. Anyone who gets hit too often is going to die and before that suck down a lot of the party's healing resources. And you get Light armor only. This can only be fixed by being a Mountain Dwarf or by using rules that are supposed to be optional (Feats and Multiclassing).

3. No one has mentioned this before, but being non-proficient in shields and only being able to summon one pact weapon at a time means there's only one fighting style that's least-bad: two-handed weapons. No sword and board, no TWF. That's sort of limiting and it's REALLY limiting if you wanted a DEX build.

I would fix this all with a change to the Pact of the Blade and adding one Invocation.

Pact of the Blade
1. You can summon one weapon, two weapons, or one weapon and shield into your free hands. If you drop or throw them they disappear at the end of your turn. You're proficient in their use.
2. Use CHR for to-hit and damage modifier.

Invocation: Vambrace of Shadow
Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade
Your patron has taught you how to fashion a vambrace from shadow material. As part of your action that summons your pact weapons you can also cause the vambrace to flow over your entire body to fashion armor. Each time you use this ability you choose the form of the armor from the following choices:
Shadow Shirt, AC 12 + DEX
Shadow Breastplate, AC 14 + DEX (Max 2)
Shadow Mail AC 17, Disadvantage
Additionally with a 1 hour ritual you can store a normal or magical suit of armor in an extra dimensional space and summon it as your action instead of the shadow armor. You are considered proficient with any armor summoned by the vambrace.

1- You don't need to pick spells that need concentration or saves. I don't see it worse than a wizard unless you go for a STR build, maximize dexterity, and later CHA or and CON. The wizard will need high Int, and good CON and DEX.
A bladelock can be good at melee and at range, he is also a full spellcaster who becomes far better at lvl 11.
2- I only played the Mines of Phandelver with a warlock, I needed less healing than the fighter and paladin. I had high dex, 18, 16-17 AC depending on the invocation, the fighters had chainmail+shield for a long time, 18 AC. I was hit only a bit more, but thanks to armor of agathys I had 5-10 THP and when hit 5-10 damage to an enemy was a kill or nearly killed, this meant less hits to me later. When the enemies were harder or the encounter was nearly finished if I killed an enemy I exchanged the THP if the armor of agathys was low on hit points, the good thing is THP are maintained with a short rest, you continue with the buffer and when you need it you cast again the armor.
3- I understand why they are not proficient with shields, feats are optional and some spells have somatic components, for example with a shield and a weapon you could not cast hellish rebuke, one of the best spells for a bladelock.

 

[Warpiglet]

You need to improve your CON stat and the warlock doesn't have proficiency with CON saves, it works well if you stay behind casting eldritch blast but that's not the purpose of the bladelock.
I don't know, my experience was that I killed a lot of enemies that could give me temporary hit points while armor of agathys was still working, false life could still be useful for those times you are ot of THP and combat, but there are also other good invocations that give you mage armor, disguise self or ilusions at will, extra damage with eldritch balst, darksight, etc.


He could pick scorching ray or fireball, or cast an enhanced eldritch blast and resot to the blade when the enemies come, or suggestions, charms, crown of madness, etc for crowd control which is a more effective way of "tanking".


1- You don't need to pick spells that need concentration or saves. I don't see it worse than a wizard unless you go for a STR build, maximize dexterity, and later CHA or and CON. The wizard will need high Int, and good CON and DEX.
A bladelock can be good at melee and at range, he is also a full spellcaster who becomes far better at lvl 11.
2- I only played the Mines of Phandelver with a warlock, I needed less healing than the fighter and paladin. I had high dex, 18, 16-17 AC depending on the invocation, the fighters had chainmail+shield for a long time, 18 AC. I was hit only a bit more, but thanks to armor of agathys I had 5-10 THP and when hit 5-10 damage to an enemy was a kill or nearly killed, this meant less hits to me later. When the enemies were harder or the encounter was nearly finished if I killed an enemy I exchanged the THP if the armor of agathys was low on hit points, the good thing is THP are maintained with a short rest, you continue with the buffer and when you need it you cast again the armor.
3- I understand why they are not proficient with shields, feats are optional and some spells have somatic components, for example with a shield and a weapon you could not cast hellish rebuke, one of the best spells for a bladelock.

I mean no disrespect (at all) to dissenting opinions but what you say about staying back at times and peppering the enemy before drawing your blade is an option.

I do not believe that the measure of a bladelock is to simply tank although some people like to do that in some fashion.

I do not think, as you suggest that SPELLS are accounted for appropriately. Fireball is a big deal. Additionally, I still say misty stepping to the squishy bad guy leader may be worth MORE than an action surge. Even a tough fighter can get grappled by mooks.

Although hex can be nice, there are many other options which situationally are simply better.

The notion that a bladelock can be ignored as a nontarget makes no sense to me. Two swipes with a greatsword (maybe to an already weakened foe is not a buzzing fly).

On the one hand, people have argued in the past that the bladelock is not worth attacking. Fighters do more damage. In the same breath, they are too soft? and cannot take attacks which is it.

My whole argument that some of the underlying assumptions about blade pact warlock need reassessment include issues you point out. And frankly, few of the analyses account for patron features such as dark one's own luck and dark one's blessing.

 

[Warpiglet]

If we are going to have a full measure of bladelock as a single classed character, I think we need to specify what we are comparing and analyzing. Otherwise, this becomes: they are not as tough as a fighter in melee and then when they make moves in that direction, they are not versatile enough.

1. I do not think a bladelock has as much value without improved armor class. Thus, I am speaking about bladelocks with armor from variant human or dwarf race primarily.

2. What are we comparing them to? No, they are not as tough as fighters. Agreed.

3. They do not tank as well as fighters? I may not really want to tank anymore than a bard or cleric.

4. If we say less than fighter in fighting, I say agreed but are we accounting for patron features, at will and other invocations, and pact magic when we measure survive ability or value> There is a lot here. Just ask the regular warlock.

5. Are we really needing to be continually protected and unable to make contributions to the party? At level 5 with a variant human I have heavy armor and (with point buy) 16 chr and str, and two attacks reasonable hit points.

6. Does a blade pact warlock make little contribution? We are looking at things through one lens: tank if we answer in the negative.

Can a fighter use disguise self at will, cast illusions and will and summon a weapon from thin air after being captured? Think of the disruption this can create and then how strategically you can place two attacks with a greatsword. Yes, the fighter can action surge and use fighting style (and cool battlemaster stuff as applicable) but this does not speak to how they are going to strategically position this firepower.

I would take a blade pact warlock behind the lines in place of a fighter who if there would be superior (but can't quite get there).

So my point remains. No, the single classed blade pact warlock cannot tank as well as a fighter, but if that is not the only measure there are game changing things that can be done with decent melee ability as an option IN ADDITION to spells, invocations and patron and pact abilities.

So if we say that the blade pact single class is totally outdone by fighter, we need to quantify this statement (pure damage output or whatever). If we compare it to multiclass blade pact we need to say it gets armor more cheaply (fewer feats sucked up) at the expense of later spell and invocation progression and loss of wisdom saving throw.

Final Point: I enjoy reading some of our resident min-maxers analyses and use it to add some cool things to characters I want to play. However, I would not tell a prospective player a single classed blade pact is no good or impossible or even sub par depending on their goal.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Can a fighter use disguise self at will, cast illusions and will and summon a weapon from thin air after being captured? Think of the disruption this can create and then how strategically you can place two attacks with a greatsword. Yes, the fighter can action surge and use fighting style (and cool battlemaster stuff as applicable) but this does not speak to how they are going to strategically position this firepower.

With the exception of summoning a blade (not that they'd care, anyway), the eldritch blast warlock could do all of that, and still deal more damage and move enemies around with its most basic attack (eldritch blast). It's not that the bladelock is not as good as a fighter, it's that her choice of going melee makes it worse than baseline "no optimization needed at all" warlock. Warlocks, RAW, nerf themselves by going melee, because they get no decent class support for doing that.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I finally went back and re-read the Arcana Unearth material on Hexblade. I think the concessions that Hexblades get Medium Armor and Shields and uses Charisma for to-hit and damage is nice, but it limits effective Blade-locks to that single patron. Limiting it to non-two-handed weapons also makes no sense when the Hexblade invocation specifically states it creates a two-handed sword.

Move those features to the Blade Pact itself and you've fixed the class. Put your best stat in Charisma, then Constitution, and then put the rest how you like. Dex is still nice for AC and Initiative but not as critical.

With the freed up Feats, Warcaster probably becomes your best Feat choice.

 

[dco]

I mean no disrespect (at all) to dissenting opinions but what you say about staying back at times and peppering the enemy before drawing your blade is an option.

I do not believe that the measure of a bladelock is to simply tank although some people like to do that in some fashion.

I do not think, as you suggest that SPELLS are accounted for appropriately. Fireball is a big deal. Additionally, I still say misty stepping to the squishy bad guy leader may be worth MORE than an action surge. Even a tough fighter can get grappled by mooks.

Although hex can be nice, there are many other options which situationally are simply better.

The notion that a bladelock can be ignored as a nontarget makes no sense to me. Two swipes with a greatsword (maybe to an already weakened foe is not a buzzing fly).

On the one hand, people have argued in the past that the bladelock is not worth attacking. Fighters do more damage. In the same breath, they are too soft? and cannot take attacks which is it.

My whole argument that some of the underlying assumptions about blade pact warlock need reassessment include issues you point out. And frankly, few of the analyses account for patron features such as dark one's own luck and dark one's blessing.

My point precisely is that you have a lot of options with the warlock:
- With good CHA any build can be very effective at range with eldritch blast, a cantrip.
- They are full spell casters with a limited spell selection, 2 spells slots per short rest can be better or worse depending on the situation. The wizard for example at lvl 5 will only cast at best 3 spells of lvl 3, the warlock could cast far more if he gets short rests.
- The bladelock can also be very effective at melee, as affective as a paladin, the paladin gains one attack and 1D8 at lvl 11, the bladelock gains 1 attack and up to +5 at level 12.

I don't think the Bladelock should be a tank or the tank, far from it, but he can tank well specially against low hitting monsters and low HP monsters, he is not a damsel.
Fighters get more attacks, more damage per attack until lvl 12, probably more AC, more HP and their class features that help them do their work better. If people want the warlock to be better fighters multiclassing if allowed is a good option, but then they will be worse warlocks, at some point is better to go full eldritch knight if you want to emulate a fighter.

The class features of the warlock are very good, you can pick those invocations before lvl 5 for example:
Agonizing blast, Devil's sight, Mask of many faces, Armor of shadows, Fiendish vigor, Misty visions...
The archfiend is the best option for a bladelock, you gain lvl+CHA THPs with a kill, at lvl 6 +1D10 to a save per short rest, at lvl 10 the resistance you choose per short rest, at lvl 14 you can deliver 10d10 psychic damage and a turn lost per long rest. 3 of those features makes you tank.
Then you have the spells, up to 4 spells slots of lvl-5 per short rest, one of lvl 6, 7, 8, 9 at higher lvls per long rest. At low levels it is more restricted with only 2 slots but sometimes it's better, specially when you are travelling and the encounters are more sporadic.

To be ignored makes no sense. Hex is good but for a bladelock I prefer hellish rebuke and armor of agathys, and things like misty step, etc for the rest of spells. My warlock has magical attacks and a magical weapon, creates minor illusions, walks on walls, disguises as the enemies he kills and gains lots of surprise rounds and sometimes information, he is sneaky, sees in the darkness magical or not, teleports, casts fireballs, soon he will get invisible with an action using shadows, etc. The fighter does nothing of those things, he is better at other things but if I wanted that I would be a fighter, that's my other point, and if you house rule and give the warlock more things at some point they can end extremelly powerful.

 

[Caliban]

You need to improve your CON stat and the warlock doesn't have proficiency with CON saves, it works well if you stay behind casting eldritch blast but that's not the purpose of the bladelock.

Sorry, I was thinking of the Bladelocks I've played - where I take my first level as fighter and thus have Proficient Con saves and heavy armor. But even on a single class Bladelock, you should take the Resilient Con (for proficiency in Con saves) or Warcaster (for advantage on Concentration saves) feat at some point, which makes maintaining concentration much easier.

Not saying you have to have Hex, just that I've found it very useful even outside of combat.

I don't know, my experience was that I killed a lot of enemies that could give me temporary hit points while armor of agathys was still working, false life could still be useful for those times you are ot of THP and combat, but there are also other good invocations that give you mage armor, disguise self or ilusions at will, extra damage with eldritch balst, darksight, etc.

Temp hit points don't stack, so anything you kill while Armor of Agathys is up won't help you unless you allow Armor of Agathys to end so you can use the new Temp HP. And of course there are other good invocations, but you get more than one invocation. My advice was for a bladelock who is in Medium (mountain dwarf, or variant human who spent a feat) or Heavy armor (1st level of fighter). Once your Temp HP from killing things is on par with the Temp HP from Fiendish Vigor, that's when you switch out the Fiendish Vigor invocation for something else on your next level.

 

[Warpiglet]

With the exception of summoning a blade (not that they'd care, anyway), the eldritch blast warlock could do all of that, and still deal more damage and move enemies around with its most basic attack (eldritch blast). It's not that the bladelock is not as good as a fighter, it's that her choice of going melee makes it worse than baseline "no optimization needed at all" warlock. Warlocks, RAW, nerf themselves by going melee, because they get no decent class support for doing that.

Giltonio, your critical eye is appreciated. We agree in some areas for sure. I still have some other thoughts about the matter which are in contrast to your position.

Yes, the eldritch blast warlock could do all of that. And have an extra invocation and boon. However, if in melee range (it happens) they would be worse off throwing eldritch blast at disadvantage. If we do not assume being ringed by tanks, being in melee happens. That would not be good. Disadvantage leads to misses and less damage. I believe that a blade pact warlock with armor and weapons has advantages over the tome warlock as well as the chain pact in many combat situations.

If you like chain or tome (I think they are cool too!) I understand. However, I would take blade pact (myself) over the others in a situation in which I am up close and personal with the enemy, am behind enemy lines and want to take out the big bad evil guy or in some other cases. But that is just opinion. You can kill an evil guy with eldritch blast alone. I like the option of using it as well as blade.

I believe blade pact adds an option at the cost of one. With that said, I also think that with the right feats and possibility of a magic weapon, the blade pact warlock can ultimately do more damage than pure eldritch blaster, particularly if the target is not hexed. I have seen but not computed the math over the lifespan of the character. I believe this to be true up to three eldritch blasts. Four might win out especially with hex. Again, I would take the former over the later with disadvantage myself when applicable.

What we agree on is this: to get blade pact, you need to give up chain or tome feature. Blade pact cannot tank as well as a fighter. Blade pact will have 1-2 fewer invocations to "spare" at level 12. They might get some features sooner/easier if they multiclass. Agreed on all counts.

What I do not agree with some posters on is this: the blade pact will do less damage overall (heck they might blast and then slice!), that they are not survivable even if in armor and must multiclass to have potentially large impacts on the game. I think we are only talking about tanking here and I do not assume that play style myeslf.

I do not agree for hopefully fairly obvious reasons. Some say they do much less damage than others. Yes, the battlemaster is poised to do more damage in melee. Again, I do not think that is all the blade pact is supposed to be accountable for. They have (potentially) ability to disrupt and circumvent and gimp the enemy.

My plan for blade pact (single classed) warlock is simple. First, have fun and play a creepy magical warrior! Second, throw spells and blast where applicable. Draw my blade and deliver solid blows (not absolute top DPR every round!) when the enemy closes and EB would be at disadvantage. Lastly, I hope to disrupt with illusions disguises and other at will abilities where possible to hopefully have some of these aforementioned fights on favorable ground! I hope to make good use of pact boons, invocations and patron abilities of course. I might even take a great sword to the BBEG if I get up on him when others are stuck by mooks. We shall see!

What I do not plan to do is be the main "tank" if your will. If I have to plug the hole in the lines though, I am as ready as any non-fighter/barbarian and I dare say more ready than some due to armor class and damage potential.

The biggest challenge for me is the MAD as well as the feats. Given moderately and heavily armored, I get to bump my strength up by two (as of fourth level). The feat tax here is one feat to be heavily armored, in effect. The problem comes later, at level 8. I would like Great Weapon Master or polearm master. That is expensive since I would also like and ASI or perhaps warcaster.

The latter might be circumvented if I do not rely on many concentration spells in combat. I think hex can be overrated for example and might want to spend a precious slot on fireball, or charming someone, etc.

But in the end I am reminded of another fact: the game does not assume all of the feats we have access to. Playing without them is the default. As a result, if I am missing a recommended feat, I am still several feats ahead of the default assumption.

If others suggest we need all recommended feats or else risk throwing the game, I think they are forgetting feats are not required, at all. Imagine that! And the game by all accounts still works...

 

[Warpiglet]

My point precisely is that you have a lot of options with the warlock:
- With good CHA any build can be very effective at range with eldritch blast, a cantrip.
- They are full spell casters with a limited spell selection, 2 spells slots per short rest can be better or worse depending on the situation. The wizard for example at lvl 5 will only cast at best 3 spells of lvl 3, the warlock could cast far more if he gets short rests.
- The bladelock can also be very effective at melee, as affective as a paladin, the paladin gains one attack and 1D8 at lvl 11, the bladelock gains 1 attack and up to +5 at level 12.

I don't think the Bladelock should be a tank or the tank, far from it, but he can tank well specially against low hitting monsters and low HP monsters, he is not a damsel.
Fighters get more attacks, more damage per attack until lvl 12, probably more AC, more HP and their class features that help them do their work better. If people want the warlock to be better fighters multiclassing if allowed is a good option, but then they will be worse warlocks, at some point is better to go full eldritch knight if you want to emulate a fighter.

The class features of the warlock are very good, you can pick those invocations before lvl 5 for example:
Agonizing blast, Devil's sight, Mask of many faces, Armor of shadows, Fiendish vigor, Misty visions...
The archfiend is the best option for a bladelock, you gain lvl+CHA THPs with a kill, at lvl 6 +1D10 to a save per short rest, at lvl 10 the resistance you choose per short rest, at lvl 14 you can deliver 10d10 psychic damage and a turn lost per long rest. 3 of those features makes you tank.
Then you have the spells, up to 4 spells slots of lvl-5 per short rest, one of lvl 6, 7, 8, 9 at higher lvls per long rest. At low levels it is more restricted with only 2 slots but sometimes it's better, specially when you are travelling and the encounters are more sporadic.

To be ignored makes no sense. Hex is good but for a bladelock I prefer hellish rebuke and armor of agathys, and things like misty step, etc for the rest of spells. My warlock has magical attacks and a magical weapon, creates minor illusions, walks on walls, disguises as the enemies he kills and gains lots of surprise rounds and sometimes information, he is sneaky, sees in the darkness magical or not, teleports, casts fireballs, soon he will get invisible with an action using shadows, etc. The fighter does nothing of those things, he is better at other things but if I wanted that I would be a fighter, that's my other point, and if you house rule and give the warlock more things at some point they can end extremelly powerful.

I agree on all counts.