Book of Exalted Deeds: What would you put in it?

[FireLance]

Sorry for the plug, but you guys are doing a pretty good job of describing the Book of Hallowed Might that I'm working on right now. Just too much of a coincidence for me not to mention it.

Great! Another must-have for me. Hmmm... should we be expecting a Book of Constructive Order and a Book of Creative Anarchy in time to come?

On my wish list:
How to prevent Good from degenerating into its caricatures of either ineffectual permissiveness or narrow-minded intolerance.

The elements of Good - how it can broken down into virtues and values, and the different ways in which societies can interpret or rank them.

A discussion on whether Good is its own reward, or whether Good will always triumph (or has advantages) over Evil, and the game mechanics to simulate this. This could range from: an amoral campaign, where there are no real advantages to being Good, apart from (maybe) having more friends you can trust, to: a karmic campaign, where good deeds earn tangible advantages (luck points, force points, karma points, what have you).

 

[s/LaSH]

I'd just like to put my vote in for more celestials... like I needed to say that. They're outnumbered, what, twenty to one by breeds of fiends?

The idea of risen fiends is compelling, too, by the by.

Let's not forget the inclusion of Law, Neutrality and Chaos, all aspects of Good. These could be used to demonstrate the differences between different ideals of goodness; they're different aspects with different properties. And relate this to the celestials; while fiends are divided neatly into Demons, Devils and Yugoloths (overall), I have yet to see a single classification in between Celestial and the species thereof.

However, there might be something to the idea that good cannot exist without evil. Good needs evil to stand above, to fight, whether through self-improvement or through slaying evildoers. (I think evil is more stand-alone in that regard, because they can kill anyone, not just evildoers or gooddoers.) It might be an idea to have some evils on hand to supply the target for an 'exalted deed'; after all, that's the point of this thread, right?

And now for something completely different.

I beg to differ. Celibacy was quite common in the ancient world IIRC. It was Chastity that was hard to find. It's not as if the semitic temple prostitutes, the Ephesian priestesses of Artemis or the priestesses of Aphrodite were usually married. . . .

To further complicate matters, celibacy was only introduced into the Catholic Church when they got a Pope from a minor order that practiced celibacy. There is still at least one order of priests that are not confined to celibacy because of a technicality.

 

[Celebrim]

"However, there might be something to the idea that good cannot exist without evil. Good needs evil to stand above, to fight, whether through self-improvement or through slaying evildoers. (I think evil is more stand-alone in that regard, because they can kill anyone, not just evildoers
or gooddoers.) It might be an idea to have some evils on hand to supply the target for an 'exalted deed'; after all, that's the point of this thread,
right?"

I don't really want to get into an extended argument over the rightness of that position (I happen to disagree but thats unimportant), but I do want to suggest that the subject you raise of good and evil being dependent on each other is a better topic for a 'Book of Golden Balance' (for Nuetrals) than a 'Book of Exalted Deeds'.

And to suggest that evil is an idea independent of good, and that good is dependent on evil is to suggest the primacy of evil as a philosophy - which is very much the position of Neutral Evil.

I've got no problem with the various philosophical positions being covered, but I do think that they should be presented clearly and separately.

 

[Celebrim]

"Not just monastic vows, etc. Also vows like "By Zeus and Apollo, I shall not rest until these villains have been brought to justice." Or "If by my life or death I can protect you, I shall." What are the in game effects of vows? Might the gods really bear witness to the vows and punish those
who abandon their oaths?"

Exactly. That's just what I had in mind. THAT is a book I might buy, not because I couldn't with time work it out for myself, but because as I get older, time is becoming more and more of a premium and I'm much more likely to have need of stuff like is being listed than I am to have need spells involving necrophilia.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Sorry for the plug, but you guys are doing a pretty good job of describing the Book of Hallowed Might that I'm working on right now. Just too much of a coincidence for me not to mention it.

I can see you cringing.

 

[drnuncheon]

And to suggest that evil is an idea independent of good, and that good is dependent on evil is to suggest the primacy of evil as a philosophy - which is very much the position of Neutral Evil.

One could equally say "Evil is not a thing in and of itself, it is merely the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light, cold the absence of heat, and silence the absence of sound," which might be more appropriate for the book.

(Of course, in the D&D cosmology, darkness, cold and silence are all 'something' rather than 'the absence of something', but we won't go there.)

Codes of Honor. I'd like to see more than just paladin codes for my part - this type of thing in general (paladin's code, code of chivalry, bushido) would be a great thing to put into the book, especially if there were Honor or Reputation rules to go along with them.

Blessings of the church. Maybe someone who regularly tithes and pays homage to the god of smiths gets some kind of bonus to his Craft checks.

Saints. Since I don't have D&Dg, I'm not sure how they'd fit in with that (DR 0?), but they would seem to me to be the natural counterpart/opposite to the people who sell their souls for power.

Gods. How to handle good gods with "traditionally evil" portfolios like death. Including a Death domain that isn't centered around killing people and creating undead.

Good-centered campaigns. The "core morality" of D&D seems to be 'mercenary neutral' - it seems to assume that the players are mostly in it for the money (explore ruins/dungeons/etc, kill stuff, get loot). Some advice on running campaigns with a higher purpose would not be amiss, especially for new DMs.

J

 

[Zaukrie]

These are all great ideas, and I hope Monte or someone else pulls them all into a product.

I'd really like to see the benefits of taking vows (just as I hope BoVD has benefits to evil taking vows).

I'd like to see some kind of "reward" system for converting evil. This justifies those players who want to find a way to "win" without killing their enemies. By this I mean, you convert an evil person or outsider to good, you should get some kind of boon....

Someone already suggested this, and I don't know if it fits in this book, but I really like the idea of someone talking about the morality (within the good/evil sense of the game) of two good kingdoms in conflict. What can a good character do in that situation? Can she take sides and still be good....

For those of you that haven't seen it yet, the Book of the Righteous has some of what you're asking for. There is a great chapter on creating holy warriors for all types of gods. There is discussion about fallen good, and risen evil. There is discussion about the conflict among the good Gods that have differences in the Law/Chaos areas. Yes, this book is pricey, and yes it would be somewhat challenging to pull into an existing campaign in places, but it might be the best written, most integrated book I've purchased (and as my wife can tell you, I've purchase too many).

Monte, as always, I look forward to your book. And, I laugh at WOTC for saying it would never sell (which I believ you've indicated in other posts).

 

[ruleslawyer]

With regard to your last point, drnuncheon: I'd DEFINITELY like to see more on non-treasure rewards for good PCs. I tend to avoid giving out looted treasure as a reward as much as possible IMC, and I often have a hard time balancing out the rewards that PCs should get instead.

Good villains are a great idea as well.

Finally, I'd like to see an alternate paladin, preferably done as a PrC, with variants available to followers of alignments other than LG; essentially a generalized good counterpart to the blackguard.