Broad Classes + Subclasses

[Nadaka]

Index:
Main Post
Fighter Talents and bonus feats
Berzerker subclass Talents and Bonus Feats

Class/Sub Class
This is an alternate system for defining classes in d20 based games. Class in this case is a generic abstract that determines the chassis of a character, his HP, BAB, Saves, Skill points, and basic skill/talent/bonus feat options. Subclasses represent a themed focus to a class that provides more deeply focused choices for skills, talents and bonus feats. For example, the wizard subclass may grant access to spells with talents and magic related bonus feat options, while the assassin subclass grants Sneak attack talents and stealth skill choices and the paladin class grants smite talents and divine spellcasting talents, etc.

Classes

Fighter		
offensive combat oriented class
BAB:		good
Fort:		good
Reflex:		poor
Will:		poor
Skills:		4
Hit Dice:	d10

Defender	
defensive combat oriented class
BAB:		average
Fort:		good
Other saves:	pick one good
Skills:		4
Hit Dice:	d12

Adventurer	
sorta average class, it combines decent offense, defense with good skills.
BAB:		average
Saves:		pick 2 good
Skills:		8
Hit Dice:	d8

Expert		
skill based class with access to more talents than usual 
(generally used for spellcasting)
BAB:		poor
Fort:		poor
Reflex:		poor
Will:		good
Skills:		12
Hit Dice:	d4
Special:	recieves talents each level

Assuming the quality of talents and bonus feat options are similar, do these class chassis look good?
I used the following rubric to roughly "balance" these classes. This is really just a for convenience, real balance would require the feedback of playtesting. In general a balanced class using this method should have 10 points divided between BAB, Saves, Skills, Hit Dice and Any other extra abilities. For example my fighter has a good BAB (5), 1 good save (2), d10 hit die (3) and 4 skill points per level (0), this adds up to 10.

		Poor	Average	Good
BAB:		0	2	5
Saves:		0	1	2
		4	6	8	10	12
Hit Dice:	0	1	2	3	4
Skill Points:	0	1	2	3	4
Extra Talent at even levels:	4

fighter = 10
Defender = 10
Adventurer = 10
Expert = 10

All classes receive a bonus feat at every even level from a specific list.
All classes receive a talent at every odd level by default.
It is theoretically possible to create nearly any kind of class with this rubric, though this should be left in the hands of the DM rather than the players.

Note that with nature of talents, the only already defined class capable of full spellcasting progression will be the expert.

Multiclassing: as normal, note that classes with save selection make that selection when first taking that class.


Changing subclasses. You can change your subclass prior to selecting any talent. Note that many talents have scaling benifits based on subclass level.

Example subclasses: tactician, weapon master, ranger, paladin, monk, knight, assassin, cleric, wizard, scholar, front man, etc.

Example Talents
Arcane Spellcasting: gain +1 arcane caster level. You may spend skill points to gain spells known. Spell slots are based on caster level and intelligence...
Divine Spellcasting: gain +1 divine caster level. You may spend skill points to gain spells known. Spell slots are based on caster level and wisdom...
Weapon Specialization: gain +1 to damage with a specific weapon for every 2 levels of weapon master.
Rage: You may enter a furious rage during combat as a swift action. Gain +4 str, +4 con +2 will saves but -2 defense and can not concentrate...

Thoughts? Comments? suggestions? Flames? Accolades?

I would post more, but I have a test to study for and a research paper to finish.

 

[Ecureuil_Diabolique]

If you're going to go through all of this, mess with the skill system so it works more easily.

Acrobatics = balance, jump, tumble

Stealth = hide+move silently

etc.

Of course you might not even care about that, but I think it should be redone to accommodate logic. Related skills should just be the same. Synergies help that, but don't do the job.

But to be on topic, I've always thought of doing something like that. If you're going to go through all of the trouble I have one thing to say:

BALANCE CASTERS AND NON CASTERS

That's about it. Have fun and try to make talents fun to take and worth dabbling in along with going straight through a tree.

 

[Nadaka]

yes, I do indeed intent to balance casters vs non-casters.

You might not have noticed it yet but my non-casters are a bit more powerful than in standard D&D, my example fighter has 2 extra skill points per level and about 9 extra class features. And the adventurer is the closest analogy to the rogue, gets +1 hp per level, an extra good save and couple extra class abilities.

Also note that spellcasters will tend to be lower power than normal for D&D. Though I have not really defined exactly how I intend to do so.

As for combining skills? I have considered it, though I have so for opted for increased skillpoints instead. Using this system a class nearly identical to the rogue (average BAB, 1 good save, d6 hp would have 10 skill points and still be considered balanced.

 

[Arkhandus]

The stuff in Code tags is hard to read as-is, especially since Code tags means that a line never ends unless you use the Enter key to make a new line. Also, your table-thing inside it is messed up and I can't understand it.

 

[Nadaka]

The stuff in Code tags is hard to read as-is, especially since Code tags means that a line never ends unless you use the Enter key to make a new line. Also, your table-thing inside it is messed up and I can't understand it.

It should look a little clearer now.

 

[Arkhandus]

Classes

Fighter		
offensive combat oriented class
BAB:		good
Fort:		good
Reflex:		poor
Will:		poor
Skills:		4
Hit Dice:	d10

Defender	
defensive combat oriented class
BAB:		average
Fort:		good
Other saves:	pick one good
Skills:		4
Hit Dice:	d12

Adventurer	
sorta average class, it combines decent offense, defense with good skills.
BAB:		average
Saves:		pick 2 good
Skills:		8
Hit Dice:	d8

Expert		
skill based class with access to more talents than usual 
(generally used for spellcasting)
BAB:		poor
Fort:		poor
Reflex:		poor
Will:		good
Skills:		12
Hit Dice:	d4
Special:	recieves talents each level

Not quite evenly balanced. The Expert's kinda weak, needs a better hit die or some other minor boost in survivability. The Defender and Adventurer each need approximately two more feat or talent equivalent benefits.

Assuming the quality of talents and bonus feat options are similar, do these class chassis look good?
I used the following rubric to roughly "balance" these classes. This is really just a for convenience, real balance would require the feedback of playtesting. In general a balanced class using this method should have 10 points divided between BAB, Saves, Skills, Hit Dice and Any other extra abilities. For example my fighter has a good BAB (5), 1 good save (2), d10 hit die (3) and 4 skill points per level (0), this adds up to 10.

		Poor	Average	Good
BAB:		0	2	5
Saves:		0	1	2
		4	6	8	10	12
Hit Dice:	0	1	2	3	4
Skill Points:	0	1	2	3	4
Extra Talent at even levels:	4

fighter = 10
Defender = 10
Adventurer = 10
Expert = 10

All classes receive a bonus feat at every even level from a specific list.
All classes receive a talent at every odd level by default.

Your point-set is uneven and somewhere awkwardly between too granular and not granular enough. I can't really balance the point values with the way it's set up.

 

[Nadaka]

Not quite evenly balanced. The Expert's kinda weak, needs a better hit die or some other minor boost in survivability. The Defender and Adventurer each need approximately two more feat or talent equivalent benefits.

Hmm, I didn't expect it to be ideal. Without changing anything point values, I could drop its skill points by 2 and give it a d6 hit die, though keep in mind, with twice the talents (50% more class features if you count bonus feats) the expert could master more talent trees and has exclusive access (as of yet) to 9th level spells (by investing 17 talents into caster level). So it may indeed end up quite weak, or quite powerful, depending on how well I get the talents to balance.

Your point-set is uneven and somewhere awkwardly between too granular and not granular enough. I can't really balance the point values with the way it's set up.

I am not quite sure what you mean here? Is the presentation poor? In case it is the presentation, I'll repeat in a non-tabular form. Or is it the values you have issues with? If the later, could you explain?

BAB
Poor (10 at level 20) costs 0 points
Average (15 at level 20) costs 2 points
Good (20 at level 20) costs 5 points

Saves
Poor (6 at level 20) costs 0 points
Average(9 at level 20) costs 1 point
Good (12 at level 20) costs 2 points

Hit Dice
1d4 costs 0 points
1d6 costs 1 point
1d8 costs 2 points
1d10 costs 3 points
1d12 costs 4 points

Skill Points per level
4 costs 0 points
6 costs 1 point
8 costs 2 points
10 costs 3 points
12 costs 4 points

double number of talents costs 4 points.

The fighter spent 5 points on good BAB, 2 points on 1 good save, nothing on 4 skill points and 3 points on Hit Dice. 5 +2 +3 = 10
The defender spent 2 points on average BAB, 4 points on 2 good saves, nothing on 4 skills and 4 points on Hit dice. 2 + 4 + 4 = 10
The adventurer spend 2 points on average BAB, 4 points on 2 good saves, 2 points on 8 skill points, and 2 points on d8 hit dice. 2 + 4 +2 +2 = 10
The expert spend nothing of poor BAB, 2 points on one good save, nothing on d4 hit points, 4 points on 12 skill points and 4 points on 10 extra talents. 2 + 4 + 4 = 10

 

[Nadaka]

If one wanted to make the expert a little more survivable, one might traide the D4 hit die for a d6 and reduce the skillpoints to 10 per level rather than 12. That would remain within the defined rubric. I would certainly appreciate suggestion on making any of the classes basically balanced.

Generic Fighter Talents
Melee Smash I
Benefit: Deal +1 damage on all unarmed/melee attacks.

Melee Smash II
Prerequisite: Melee Smash I
Benefit: Deal +2 damage on all unarmed/melee attacks.

Melee Smash III
Prerequisite: Melee Smash I, Melee Smash II
Benefit: Deal +3 damage on all unarmed/melee attacks.

Melee Smash IV
Prerequisite: Melee Smash I, Melee Smash II, Melee Smash III
Benefit: Deal +4 damage on all unarmed/melee attacks.

Powerful Shot I
Benefit: Deal +1 damage on all thrown/projectile attacks.

Powerful Shot II
Prerequisite: Powerful Shot I
Benefit: Deal +2 damage on all thrown/projectile attacks.

Powerful Shot III
Prerequisite: Powerful Shot I, Powerful Shot II
Benefit: Deal +3 damage on all thrown/projectile attacks.

Powerful Shot IV
Prerequisite: Powerful Shot I, Powerful Shot II, Powerful Shot III
Benefit: Deal +4 damage on all thrown/projectile attacks.

Aim
Benefit: as a swift, move or standard action you may gain a +2 bonus to your next attack. If you do not attack within one round, you loose your aim bonus. Aim bonuses stack with themselves. For instance, one could take two full rounds to make a single attack at +10 to hit.

Improved Aim
Prerequisite: Aim
Benefit: when you aim, you gain a +4 bonus to hit instead of a +2 bonus.

Greater Aim
Prerequisite: Aim, Improved Aim
Benefit: when you aim, you gain a +6 bonus to hit instead of a +4 bonus.

Improved Rate of Attack
Benefit: Your penalty to iterative attacks is reduced from 5 to 4 for each attack. One is still limited to a maximum of 4 attacks.
Note: by my calculations this increases average damage on a full round attack by ~14.4% above a normal FRA depending on BAB and the difference between the final attack bonus and targets defense.

Greater Rate of Attack
Benefit: Your penalty to iterative attacks is reduced from 4 to 3 for each attack. One is still limited to a maximum of 4 attacks.
Note: by my calculations this increases average damage on a full round attack by ~35.2% above a normal FRA depending on BAB and the difference between the final attack bonus and targets defense.

Superior Rate of Attack
Benefit: Your penalty to iterative attacks is reduced from 3 to 2 for each attack. One is still limited to a maximum of 4 attacks.
Note: by my calculations this increases average damage on a full round attack by ~57.6% above a normal FRA depending on BAB and the difference between the final attack bonus and targets defense.

Improved Rate of Attack		Greater Rate of Attack		Superior Rate of Attack	
1				1	 	 	 	1	 	 	 
2				2	 	 	 	2	 	 	 
3				3	 	 	 	3	1	 	 
4				4	1	 	 	4	2	 	 
5	1			5	2	 	 	5	3	1	 
6	2			6	3	 	 	6	4	2	 
7	3			7	4	1	 	7	5	3	1
8	4			8	5	2	 	8	6	4	2
9	5	1		9	6	3	 	9	7	5	3
10	6	2		10	7	4	1	10	8	6	4
11	7	3		11	8	5	2	11	9	7	5
12	8	4		12	9	6	3	12	10	8	6
13	9	5	1	13	10	7	4	13	11	9	7
14	10	6	2	14	11	8	5	14	12	10	8
15	11	7	3	15	12	9	6	15	13	11	9
16	12	8	4	16	13	10	7	16	14	12	10
17	13	9	5	17	14	11	8	17	15	13	11
18	14	10	6	18	15	12	9	18	16	14	12
19	15	11	7	19	16	13	10	19	17	15	13
20	16	12	8	20	17	14	11	20	18	16	14

Uncanny Dodge
Benefit: Uncanny Dodge.

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisite: Uncanny Dodge
Benefit: Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Skirmish
Benefit: +1d6 skirmish damage when you move at least 10 feet.
Special: This talent can be taken multiple times, its effects stack.

Smite Foe
Benefit: once per encounter you may smite a foe with righteous fury. A smite is a swift action that adds your charisma bonus to attack and your fighter level to damage on your next attack.
Special: This talent can be taken multiple times, each time you take it you gain one additional smite per encounter.

Generic Fighter bonus feats
Any conventional fighter bonus feat, Craft Magical Arms & Armor, Personal Training, Weapon Group Proficiency: Any, Armor Proficiency: Any.

CMAA: A fighter should not have to depend on a spell-caster for his bread and butter. Treat the fighters BAB as his caster level for item creation purposes.

Personal Training: Another "item creation" feat. It allows the user to train his mind and body to gain extraordinary and possibly supernatural abilities that would normally be gained through magic items. This is an option for those who prefer to avoid having a lot of magic items without sacrificing the utility of non spell-casters. This feat allows the user to mimic the powers of most wondrous items. Except that the effects are internal and can not be lost, stolen, disjoined or sold. An extraordinary effect costs 2 times the normal cost, and is subject to DM approval. A slotted effect is tied to one of the characters chakra points and one can not use an actual item in the slot tied to that chakra at the same time as an effect gained through personal training.

Weapons and Armor proficiencies: With weapon groups, its possible the fighter might not have every weapon feat at the start.

?Questions to the reader?
I realize that some of these talent may be a bit far out there. But keep in mind that this fighter is supposed to be better at killing things than a cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer. To that end these talents are focused on the strike role of killing foes with extreme prejudice. Are there any that really jump out there as stronger than the others or weaker? Does anyone have any suggestions for improvements? What kind of subclasses should I include? Should I limit the subclasses to specific broad classes, or make them a bit more flexible. For instance I could see a paladin style fighter using a cleric subclass to use some talents on spell-casting and divine channeling while using other talents on his smites and general combat ability.

 

[Nadaka]

Berzerker sub class [Fighter]
*Insert barbarian flavor text here.

Berzerker Talents

Rage
Benefit: Gain Rage once per day.

Greater Rage
Prerequisite: Rage
Benefit: rage improves.

Indomitable Will
Prerequisite: Rage, Greater Rage.
Benefit: gain +4 will save to enchantments while raging.

Tireless Rage
Prerequisite: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable Will.
Benefit: no longer fatigued after rage.

Mighty Rage
Prerequisite: Rage, Greater Rage, Indomitable Will, Tireless Rage.
Benefit: rage improves again.

Reduce Damage
Benefit: Gain DR 1/-

Improved Reduce Damage
Prerequisite: Reduce Damage
Benefit: Gain DR 2/-
Special: this stacks with Reduce Damage

Greater Reduce Damage
Prerequisite: Reduce Damage, Improved Reduce Damage
Benefit: Gain DR 3/-
Special: this stacks with Reduce Damage and Improved Reduce Damage

Bonus Feat list
Extra Rage: gain extra rages per day
Trap sense: gain bonuses to saves vs traps (3 feats to reach +6)
Fast Movement: gain +10 to movement rate.
Improved toughness
+Other feats?

To rebuild a barbarian take all listed talents + uncanny dodge + improved uncanny dodge from the fighter list. Then take 5 Extra rage feats, 3 trap sense feats improved toughness and 1 fast movement feat. In the end, you end up with +1 DR, no illiteracy vs a standard barbarian.

 

[Nadaka]

no more comments? suggestions? flames?

I don't have any more to post at the moment, school is taking to much effort.
:bump: