D&D 5E Building a better Sorcerer

[gyor]

Metamagic is a step in the right direction, allowing the sorcerer to take magic and reshape it. However, since it's built on top of a full-caster base class, and all the spells were designed for the wizard, there isn't much room left to really go full shape-y-ness.

Overall the Sorcerer feels like a wizard sub-class (see the lore mastery wizard), not its own thing.


That's probably the biggest issue of 5e overall. Too much in the base classes, not enough uniqueness of the sub-classes.

Yea. A "spell shaper" sub-class is probably the best we can hope for.

Unless they want to make a new class called the "Sorceress" or something. Or make 5.5e

The Sorceror could use more Sorceror unique spells, like a spell or feat that allows the Sorceror to sacrifice hit dice for soell points.

 

[clearstream]

Hi, everyone.
Let's talk Sorcerers. What works for them? What would you change and why? How can they be improved?

My general thinking so far is that Sorcerers are instinctive, natural casters so that -

1) Sorcerers should use a different resource from other casters. Currently I'm trying to work out if Hit Dice can be that resource?
2) Sorcerer spells should be spell-for-spell stronger than other casters. Currently I'm trying to work out if that could be by making them hard to counter.
3) In line with the above metamagic is central to sorcery: they should be able to cast most spells with a metamagic applied

For example

Font of Magic (spend hit dice to gain sorcery points)
At 2nd level, you tap into a deep wellspring of magic within yourself. That wellspring is represented by sorcery points that you replenish from your life force. You can take a bonus action to spend one or more sorcerer hit dice. For each hit die spent this way, roll that die and add the number rolled to sorcery points. Once you have spent the number of hit dice listed for your level below this way, you can’t spend more until you finish a long rest. Unspent sorcery points are lost at the end of that rest.

Level.....Hit dice*
2-3.......1
4-5.......2
6-7.......3
8-9.......4
10-11....5
12-13....6
14-15....7
16-17....8
18-19....9
20.......10

This intentionally results in Sorcerers having more sorcery points to work with, but at the cost of spending their hit dice. However, sorcery points then convert into spell slots at the following rates (while still converting back at the book rate)...

Level.....Cost
1.......3
2.......5
3.......8
4.......10
5.......14

Unstoppable Spell (new metamagic, prevents Counterspell)
When you cast a spell, you can spend 4 sorcery points to prevent other casters interrupting it with Counterspell.

 

[CapnZapp]

To me the concept of "meta" as in metamagic is a highly intellectual concept - a concept for philosophers and researchers.

To me sorcery should be instinctual, primal, driven by emotions.

I don't mind that Sorcerers get to shape spells, but I greatly mind that they monopolize metamagic.

To me metamagic is a natural fit for Wizards and psionicists - Intelligence-based casters. To a lesser degree I can see the concept working for highly formal and ritualistic casters, ie the liturgical Clerics.

Metamagic should be available to all "full" casters, even if, say, Wizards need to write down variant spells in their spellbook, and, say, Clerics can only use metamagic with rituals.

This doesn't mean the concept should go away from Sorcerers. They are still the prime candidate for spell-shaping on the fly. But their version should not be called metamagic.

If Sorcerers need something to stand out from Wizards, let that be something else than an ill-conceived monopoly on metamagic!

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[clearstream]

To me the concept of "meta" as in metamagic is a highly intellectual concept - a concept for philosophers and researchers.

That's interesting! For me I see their power to twist spells into new shapes arising directly out of their deep connection to the weave. Due to their lack of studiousness they have a more limited range of spells, but due to their instinctive connection with the weave they have greater expression with that range. For me - metamagic represents art, not intellect.

To me sorcery should be instinctual, primal, driven by emotions.

I don't mind that Sorcerers get to shape spells, but I greatly mind that they monopolize metamagic.

I don't really agree with boxing them into primal. Instinctual yes, emotional yes. Art, not science. But not primal - not aggressively natural. More supernatural.

To me metamagic is a natural fit for Wizards and psionicists - Intelligence-based casters. To a lesser degree I can see the concept working for highly formal and ritualistic casters, ie the liturgical Clerics.

Metamagic should be available to all "full" casters, even if, say, Wizards need to write down variant spells in their spellbook, and, say, Clerics can only use metamagic with rituals.

I believe it would be a real shame to take away from Sorcerers something so distinctive as metamagic. I love using that design space to open up their class!

 

[CapnZapp]

That's interesting! For me I see their power to twist spells into new shapes arising directly out of their deep connection to the weave. Due to their lack of studiousness they have a more limited range of spells, but due to their instinctive connection with the weave they have greater expression with that range. For me - metamagic represents art, not intellect.


I don't really agree with boxing them into primal. Instinctual yes, emotional yes. Art, not science. But not primal - not aggressively natural. More supernatural.


I believe it would be a real shame to take away from Sorcerers something so distinctive as metamagic. I love using that design space to open up their class!

First off, I'm talking about the non-rpg notion of "meta".

Secondly Metamagic is not new to 5e. It was available already in 3e.

There is nothing that says metamagic has a particular connection to emotions, Charisma or Sorcerers. Neither in general nor in D&D history.

This retconning into a Sorcerer exclusive was a most unpleasant surprise. Not only is it a bad fit thematically (metamagic as a concept that is, not spell-shaping as a general ability) it is also deeply disappointing it is denied to other classes.

I fully agree 5e Sorcerers need something to make them stand out now that everyone casts like 3e Sorcerers. They just chose a very unsatisfying replacement.



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[MechaTarrasque]

It occurs to me that admixture would have been a better gimmick than metamagic for sorcerers: spend 1 sp to add 1d8 damage of the type associated with your subclass to a spell (rolled at random for wild sorcerer, radiant for "good" divine/favored soul, necrotic for "evil" divine/favored soul, storm picks lightening or thunder at 1st level). Unhappy that there aren't enough acid spells for your black dragon sorcerer? No problem, spend spell points to add acid damage to fireball (who else has acid fireball?). Unhappy that your white room sorcerer isn't the king of DPR? No problem, blow all your spell points to one big nuke.

 

[clearstream]

First off, I'm talking about the non-rpg notion of "meta".

Secondly Metamagic is not new to 5e. It was available already in 3e.

I know it was available in 3e (clunky, but available). What excites me about Sorcerers in 5e is exclusive access to metamagic. Let's face it, the non-RPG definition of "meta" isn't relevant here.

There is nothing that says metamagic has a particular connection to emotions, Charisma or Sorcerers. Neither in general nor in D&D history.

This retconning into a Sorcerer exclusive was a most unpleasant surprise. Not only is it a bad fit thematically (metamagic as a concept that is, not spell-shaping as a general ability) it is also deeply disappointing it is denied to other classes.

For me it was a very pleasant surprise. It felt really appropriate for the class. I guess it all depends how you view being able to customise spells as you cast them. I see that as very appropriate for casters with an instinctive connection to the Weave even while acknowledging that you see it differently. I would suggest that the burden is on those who don't want Sorcerer's to have exclusive access to metamagic to come up with something else great for them.

 

[snickersnax]

To me the concept of "meta" as in metamagic is a highly intellectual concept - a concept for philosophers and researchers. [/URL]

Meta- has several definitions. One is "as a higher level of abstration" as you point out. But the another is "self-referential". I guess I've always assumed meta- in metamagic was the second definition, meaning that it was magic about magic.

 

[steeldragons]

The breakdown of subclasses into "ancestry" or "environment" is an intriguing way to go...but ultimately, kinda "same-ish." I mean, the just about ANY Sorcerer Origin could be from an ancestor or their environment. A "draconic" sorcerer could be because great grandpa was a dragon...or because great grandpa lived near or served or was favored/granted powers by a dragon. A "storm sorcerer" could be -as the SCAG states- because you were "born during a particularly terrible [and obviously magical] weather" (which I find to be utterly ludicrous) or, maybe, great grandma had sex with a djinni or other air elemental or a weather-related fae/sidhe, demi-god, storm giant, whatever...You can be a "fae sorcerer" because your father is a faerie prince or you were birthed in a stone circle on purpose or accidentally in a "faerie ring" of toadstools.

My point is, that/those origins are just all story. It's not really a hook to hang your subclass feature/mechanical divisions on.

I think the more evocative, and arguably allowing for more creative backstories, subclass "Origin" breakdown would have been (or "would be" if you're "Building a Better Sorcerer") to divide them up by the focus of their magical powers.

To whit...Elemental Sorcerer: You choose one of the following elements around which your magical spells and subclass features all use/rely: fire, cold/ice, earth/stone, water, air, wood/plants, metal/magnetism.
Enchantment Sorcerer: Enchantments, Illusions, emotions, dreams, charming things.
Mind Sorcerer: telepathy, clairvoyance/precognition, dreams, astral travel, "person" and "animal" control.
Force Sorcerer: basically ramped up telekinetics, forcefields, shooting force bolts, lifting, "holding," carrying/levitating (self and others).

Base features, essentially, stay the same: Spell Points & Metamagic tricks. Subclass features get broken down, roughly and with different subclasses possessing different strengths in various areas (obviously), into things you can spend spell points on to do things with those powers in a "macro" sense and/or alter/adjust spells that work with your area: every subclass would get some kind of offensive attack, defensive use, non-damaging offense, detection/divination/information gathering in your area of expertise, movement use, bonus to/adjust your saves for something or the other, etc...

Is your background some extraplanar ancestor? Powerful material plane creature? Magical experiment/mishap? Vortex of Power location? Supernatural/Preternatural disaster/occurrence? Someone cast a Wish somewhere (either directly on you or in your family's past or that had nothing to do with you but was poorly worded and went awry)? or you have no idea/"I was just born this way?"

Doesn't really matter, does it? Any of those could work for any of those options...a hundred different ways.

You want a better Sorcerer? Revamp how the class is structured/divided. Remove "Origins" and insert subclass "Power Foci."

 

[snickersnax]

I'd like to see sorcerers be able apply more than one metamagic at a time to a spell at higher sorcerer levels (maybe up to 3 or 4 at level 20) and/or have the metamagic effects increase for extra spell point cost
.