Can a character become hidden without using the hide action?

[5ekyu]

I use the Hide action to allow someone to go from "detected" to "undetected," as it were. If a creature was never detected to begin with, it does not need to spend an action to be hidden as they are already hidden. If you walk into a dark room with an unseen cat sleeping on a table in the corner, you don't automatically detect the presence of the cat simply because it never took the hide action any more than you'd automatically detect the presence of the unseen table it is sleeping on.

For the first example... if the PCs did not detect the presence of the witches before the door before opened or otherwise know they were there (Did they hear the witches cast a spell? Did the witches reveal their presence by making noise or leaving obvious tracks?), then the witches count as automatically hidden without expending an action.

Many conditions and terrain can break line of sight with no actions required. perception, stealth, hide etc are called into question when line of sight (or other sense) is possible and simply not needed when they are not. You do not have to "not speak" to be "unheard" from someone who is deaf.

In your cat case, you might walk into a completely obscured room and still hear the cat and not the table, for instance.

 

[Ganymede81]

I think thats what the stealth vs passive perception check answers.

Yeah, I think so.

I always ask myself if a PC or NPC is attempting to hide from someone (attempting to break LoS and become undetected) or if they are merely attempting to be stealthy. One requires a hide action while the other requires an action-less stealth check.

 

[Uller]

1. The witches are not hidden. It is reasonable for the PCs to hear the witches casting invisibility and they should not be Surprised.

It is just as reasonable that they don't hear anything. You have 5 heavily armed and armored folks waiting on one side of an oak iron bound door while the rogue clinks around with his lock picking tools. Hence the check. Those that do hear it certainly would not automatically know the number and location of 5 witches...

The way I narrated it was I told them the PCs that passed could have sworn they heard several female voices chanting in unison just as the door opened but when they looked into the room know one was there....roll initiative. Those of you that didn't hear are surprised.

On their turn the unsurprised characters could choose to search to try to locate the witches or guess. The wizard was not surprised. He "guessed" with a fireball spell which ended the encounter...

2. Why should the medusa get to go first?

I didn't intend to say the medusa went first. She didn't. The paladin burst into the room looking at the ground. Why should he automatically know her exact location (or whether there was only one opponent!) to attack her? It seems to me that even though she wasn't hiding it would have been fair to allow her a stealth vs pp to see if she could keep her location unknown long enough for him to have to take a moment and use his other senses to locate her.

In the end, I think that's what combat stealth checks are for. Not to see if a creature is hidden or can remain hidden. But to see if they can keep their location hidden just long enough to achieve some effect. A party bursts into a room with 5 invisible witches. In the moment that they are looking around to see what is there the witches act. But those that are more perceptive know that there is hidden danger.

I think in some cases this does not require a hide action. As was stated above: the hide action allows you to become or remain hidden when you otherwise would not. But that does not mean there are not times where you might become or remain hidden without doing anything at all.

 

[Ganymede81]

In your cat case, you might walk into a completely obscured room and still hear the cat and not the table, for instance.

That's true! You might hear it purring or licking. Mechanically, your passive Perception score might beat the sleeping cat's stealth score.

A closer case would be trying to detect an animated broom laying in the corner of a dark room, next to a mundane broom. I'd rule that the animated broom remains undetected no matter your passive perception score.

 

[Uller]

.

In your cat case, you might walk into a completely obscured room and still hear the cat and not the table, for instance.

And to detemine if you hear the cat purring in its sleep? Some sort of check would be called for.


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[Tormyr]

It is just as reasonable that they don't hear anything. You have 5 heavily armed and armored folks waiting on one side of an oak iron bound door while the rogue clinks around with his lock picking tools. Hence the check. Those that do hear it certainly would not automatically know the number and location of 5 witches...

The way I narrated it was I told them the PCs that passed could have sworn they heard several female voices chanting in unison just as the door opened but when they looked into the room know one was there....roll initiative. Those of you that didn't hear are surprised.

On their turn the unsurprised characters could choose to search to try to locate the witches or guess. The wizard was not surprised. He "guessed" with a fireball spell which ended the encounter...

I didn't intend to say the medusa went first. She didn't. The paladin burst into the room looking at the ground. Why should he automatically know her exact location (or whether there was only one opponent!) to attack her? It seems to me that even though she wasn't hiding it would have been fair to allow her a stealth vs pp to see if she could keep her location unknown long enough for him to have to take a moment and use his other senses to locate her.

In the end, I think that's what combat stealth checks are for. Not to see if a creature is hidden or can remain hidden. But to see if they can keep their location hidden just long enough to achieve some effect. A party bursts into a room with 5 invisible witches. In the moment that they are looking around to see what is there the witches act. But those that are more perceptive know that there is hidden danger.

I think in some cases this does not require a hide action. As was stated above: the hide action allows you to become or remain hidden when you otherwise would not. But that does not mean there are not times where you might become or remain hidden without doing anything at all.

1. Sorry, I had misunderstood the situation to be that the PC was somewhat on their own (and I did not know they were all in noisy armor). What I would suggest depends on what the witches do. If they are trying to hide, then they use the Hide action when the PC comes in the door and you compare stealth to perception. If the witches are going to attack immediately, then they are heavily obscured but not undetectable. The PCs notice there is something in the room and are not surprised. Roll initiative as normal. All you need to do for the witches to have a surprise round is to first take the Hide action and have all of the PCs do worse on the roll. You can roll both sides with the witches having advantage; you can roll just the witches with advantage against the PCs passive perception; you can roll the PC's perception against 10 + Stealth + 5 for advantage; or your can take PC's passive perception vs 10 + Stealth + 5. As long as the witches take their first action when the PCs burst in the room to Hide, the normal rules still work.

2. If the Paladin needs to figure out where the medusa is, then ask for a perception check. If the medusa did not know the paladin was coming and the paladin had not taken the Hide action to scope out the lay of the land, then neither of them are hidden from each other and neither creature is surprised. If a creature has not used the Hide action from an awareness that there is a potential predator / prey scenario, then the general idea is that the creature is making some sort of movement, sound, catches in peripheral vision, or something that allows at least their general location to be detected. Roll initiative as normal.

 

[Uller]

1. Sorry, I had misunderstood the situation to be that the PC was somewhat on their own (and I did not know they were all in noisy armor). What I would suggest depends on what the witches do. If they are trying to hide, then they use the Hide action when the PC comes in the door and you compare stealth to perception. If the witches are going to attack immediately, then they are heavily obscured but not undetectable. The PCs notice there is something in the room and are not surprised. Roll initiative as normal. All you need to do for the witches to have a surprise round is to first take the Hide action and have all of the PCs do worse on the roll. You can roll both sides with the witches having advantage; you can roll just the witches with advantage against the PCs passive perception; you can roll the PC's perception against 10 + Stealth + 5 for advantage; or your can take PC's passive perception vs 10 + Stealth + 5. As long as the witches take their first action when the PCs burst in the room to Hide, the normal rules still work.

I don't know their first action until it is their turn. The PCs opened the door. The people whose passive perception allowed them sense the witches got to go normally ad the wizard won init. I described what they saw: "You heard voices chanting but now see nothing" (and obviously they sensed an attack coming because we were now in initiative). They couldn't tell where the witches were or exactly how many. If they wanted more information than that, I think spending an action would have been fair. Wizard forgoes his turn to make a perception check and then let the other PCs know what he notices...seems fair....

In this situation, in gridded combat, would you have placed figures or tokens of some sort on the map for the locations of the witches to let the players know exact location and number (and other information)? Or would just have left it at your description so they would have to guess? I left the map blank. Like I said...the wizard guessed with a fireball and ended the fight. If the witches were able to cast invisible and hide before the door opened, I'd have given advantage on the roll and more PCs may have been surprised (or maybe I would not have initiated combat right away and just described an empty room).

In theater of the mind if they wanted to get more info or guess at a location to attack, how would you handle that? I'd have allowed a perception check to make an educated guess at an area to swing a sword or poke with a spear. Would you just have allowed them to attack with disadv?

2. If the Paladin needs to figure out where the medusa is, then ask for a perception check.

That's what I'm saying. I didn't...it was gridded combat. I just placed the medusa on the map and let the paladin charge in and swing away like Joaquin Phoenix in signs. It didn't feel right. Allowing a perception check (or asking the player to guess) would have felt more right, I think.

 

[Bardbarian]

In the case of the witches behind the door they could have been hidden before casting invisibility. The door provided the cover. Assuming the door muffled the sounds of castin sufficently to prevent the player form hearing them cast. (this is covered in the DMG by increasing the DC, I believe.) the witches somply created a new source of obscurement to continue hiding when the first source, the door, was opened.

 

[Tormyr]

I don't know their first action until it is their turn. The PCs opened the door. The people whose passive perception allowed them sense the witches got to go normally ad the wizard won init. I described what they saw: "You heard voices chanting but now see nothing" (and obviously they sensed an attack coming because we were now in initiative). They couldn't tell where the witches were or exactly how many. If they wanted more information than that, I think spending an action would have been fair. Wizard forgoes his turn to make a perception check and then let the other PCs know what he notices...seems fair....

In this situation, in gridded combat, would you have placed figures or tokens of some sort on the map for the locations of the witches to let the players know exact location and number (and other information)? Or would just have left it at your description so they would have to guess? I left the map blank. Like I said...the wizard guessed with a fireball and ended the fight. If the witches were able to cast invisible and hide before the door opened, I'd have given advantage on the roll and more PCs may have been surprised (or maybe I would not have initiated combat right away and just described an empty room).

In theater of the mind if they wanted to get more info or guess at a location to attack, how would you handle that? I'd have allowed a perception check to make an educated guess at an area to swing a sword or poke with a spear. Would you just have allowed them to attack with disadv?




That's what I'm saying. I didn't...it was gridded combat. I just placed the medusa on the map and let the paladin charge in and swing away like Joaquin Phoenix in signs. It didn't feel right. Allowing a perception check (or asking the player to guess) would have felt more right, I think.

1. It sounds like you ran it pretty well as is. When using a grid I will just gesture to an area or place a die in the general area if they have a better sense of direction.
2. Sounds more like a learning experience. You now know how you want to run it in the future with a perception check. That however is different than it hiding which triggers other rules.

 

[5ekyu]

And to detemine if you hear the cat purring in its sleep? Some sort of check would be called for.


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yes, just like picking out a small detail at a glance would require a check.

Walk into room that is well lit and notice a dime on the floor under the edge of the divan at first glance - make a check. hear a cat purring in their sleep from behind the divan - check.

Those are not examples of hiding but of how much you get from initial perceptions of relatively obvious things.

neither of those would apply to whether or not you see the man sized hag taking out loud in the room. that would **normally* be considered a case for "no check required" and then on top of that various effects like lighting, hide checks and so on can apply and change those from automatic to [see rules].