Can a character become hidden without using the hide action?

[Uller]

Example...

Character A is chasing B down a street and B ducks into an ally using his full movement. A can't see B. There is sufficient noise from the crowd on the street and A's own running feet that A can't hear B. From the point A lost sight of B A has no idea what B did after that (though A can guess).

The way I've always run it is no. B is not hidden. As soon as A turns the corner A can see B unless B is obscured by something and even then A has a good idea where B is unless B used the hide action. Even if B was invisible or A somehow blinded or it was dark...B has to hide to be hidden.

I'm beginning to rethink that now. A few encounters have just not felt right to me.

Two examples: A PC came to a locked door. Behind it were some witches. The PC started picking the lock. The witches heard this and all cast invisibility. But they didn't have time to also "hide". But once the door opened I didn't see any reason the party would know the location of invisible witches that didn't act yet. So I had the witches roll a stealth check. Any PCs whose passive perception was lower than the check was surprised. Any who was not surprised knew something was there but not exactly where.

2). I mentioned in another thread I ran a solo game for my son's paladin. He figured out he was going against a medusa and when he got to its lair he diverted his eyes and burst in to attack it. I let him know where it was and attack w/ disadv. He beat it in init...so it hadn't acted yet. This just didn't feel right. In hindsight I should have said he could close his eyes but then the medusa would start out hidden. Or he could take the search action to try to locate the medusa through hearing. Or he could try just not looking right at it and that would mean he could locate it automatically but would have to save against its gaze but with adv (and his attacks would still be at disadv and its would be at adv).

I know...I know...this will reopen the whole stealth can o worms. But I want others thoughts before I let my group know I am changing how I usually rule.

My thought is that in some circumstances, a character can get a free stealth check without using the hide action. If there is some circumstance that would cause an opponent to lose track of where the character is. It has to be something really overwhelming...like character B above becoming invisible or ducking into total darkeness or there being multiple side allies and the pursuer has to guess which one was taken...

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[5ekyu]

By the rules, as i understand them, when line of sight is established you see things that you can see... unless the hide action is in play. unless someone is trying to hide and be hidden there is no innate question of perception excpet as presented by darkness, lighting and such.

But, remember that hide and unseen are not the same thing. An invisible target (including one you have chosen to not see by closing your eyes) does not need to "hide" to remain unseen - unheard - different thing.

i think a lot of the game mechanics are working Ok if one keeps to "hide action required to maintain hidden" (such as when behind cover that does not block LOS but provides some concealment) and you can start hitting a lot more problems if somehow you get to passive no-action hiding beyond the cases such as invis and blocked LOS.

 

[Ristamar]

1) If the witches were already hidden (i.e. undetected), they shouldn't need to hide again. That being said, I likely would have made a secret Perception check for the PC to see if he heard the castings through the door, or (more likely) simply assume he heard voices if there wasn't much background noise. The witches could then attempt to hide after he entered (passive Perception vs Stealth). This would also be a great case for using passive initiative for PCs since you can roll the witches' initiative in secret to avoid tipping off a potential combat.

2) I don't see a problem with this scenario, though you could have asked him to roll initiative with Disadvantage if he went in looking away before the dice were cast. It's a largely unnecessary gesture since the PC has the option to avert his gaze until his next turn before making a save as long as he's not surprised.

 

[Tormyr]

Personal observations:

1. The witches are not hidden. It is reasonable for the PCs to hear the witches casting invisibility and they should not be Surprised.
2. Why should the medusa get to go first? That is what initiative is for. If you want to impose a disadvantage for averting eyes, I would argue that disadvantage on the initiative roll fits better that just letting the medusa go first. The paladin was not surprised, and unless the medusa was surprised, it should have had a chance to act.

Invisibility is not automatic stealth. It is advantage on a Dexterity (Stealth) check when a creature takes the Hide action. If the creature does not have time to take the Hide action, they are not hidden. They can be completely obscured without being hidden.

In scenario 1, the witches still can take the Hide action on their next turn and get advantage on their first attack rolls (whenever those happen). The PC should know that someone is in the room and roughly where they are but not exactly where they are. So if you call for initiative to be rolled, no one should be surprised outside of any PCs that did not know what was going on, and attack rolls on the witches would have disadvantage vs. being next to impossible once they take the Hide action.

In scenario 2, the Paladin burst in to attack. So they have some sort of upper-hand even if they do not look at the medusa. It really seems like normal initiative works here.

My 2cp.

 

[5ekyu]

Personal observations:

1. The witches are not hidden. It is reasonable for the PCs to hear the witches casting invisibility and they should not be Surprised.
2. Why should the medusa get to go first? That is what initiative is for. If you want to impose a disadvantage for averting eyes, I would argue that disadvantage on the initiative roll fits better that just letting the medusa go first. The paladin was not surprised, and unless the medusa was surprised, it should have had a chance to act.

Invisibility is not automatic stealth. It is advantage on a Dexterity (Stealth) check when a creature takes the Hide action. If the creature does not have time to take the Hide action, they are not hidden. They can be completely obscured without being hidden.

In scenario 1, the witches still can take the Hide action on their next turn and get advantage on their first attack rolls (whenever those happen). The PC should know that someone is in the room and roughly where they are but not exactly where they are. So if you call for initiative to be rolled, no one should be surprised outside of any PCs that did not know what was going on, and attack rolls on the witches would have disadvantage vs. being next to impossible once they take the Hide action.

In scenario 2, the Paladin burst in to attack. So they have some sort of upper-hand even if they do not look at the medusa. It really seems like normal initiative works here.

My 2cp.

"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."

 

[Tormyr]

"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."

Sorry, I missed why you bolded some of my quote and then quoted a rule. Care to unpack it a bit more?

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Yes, you can attempt to hide without specifically taking the hide action. The hide action allows you to make a stealth check to attempt to hide, but it does not preclude gaining hidden status from another action or situation.

Hiding means concealing your presence or (if failing that) your position. Any action or activity that you take that achieves either of those may warrant a hiding check contested by your opponent's perception when it becomes relevant. The exact criteria required is left up to the DM to keep the myriad of potential interactions from forcing complex rules bloat to deal with it.

For invisibility, as in your first scenario, I would absolutely give the witches a hide check even without using the hide action. In this situation, the casting of invisibility serves as the necessary action. The creature does something and gets a similar result. "Quick, let's hide with our invisibility spells!" is functionally the same as "Quick, let's hide behind the drapes!"

But say the PCs surprise the witches and, on the first round of combat, they each decide to cast invisibility. Should they get a free hide roll or should they be required to use the hide action? In this case, their presence and positions are already known to the PCs. They are not hidden, but they are unseen.

Since the PCs know their positions they can make attacks against them with disadvantage. If the witches want to obscure their positions (forcing the PCs to guess them in order to successfully attack), they need to actively achieve it by using the hide action. This represents sneaking, preventing kicking up dust or leaving footprints and so on.

If something happens which I think might cause the PCs to loose track of an invisible (but not hidden) witch, I might allow it a chance to hide without necessarily taking the hide action to do so. Maybe the witch moves far enough away or casts misty step, of maybe the whole area is hit with a fireball. On the other hand, maybe the ground is covered in dried leaves making moving silently practically impossible.

 

[Ganymede81]

I use the Hide action to allow someone to go from "detected" to "undetected," as it were. If a creature was never detected to begin with, it does not need to spend an action to be hidden as they are already hidden. If you walk into a dark room with an unseen cat sleeping on a table in the corner, you don't automatically detect the presence of the cat simply because it never took the hide action any more than you'd automatically detect the presence of the unseen table it is sleeping on.

For the first example... if the PCs did not detect the presence of the witches before the door before opened or otherwise know they were there (Did they hear the witches cast a spell? Did the witches reveal their presence by making noise or leaving obvious tracks?), then the witches count as automatically hidden without expending an action.

 

[mellored]

Yes you need to take the hide action. If B saw A, than A could see B. Even if A moved first, B could run right after him. And if B ran, it would attact attention. It would be better to hide in the crowd first, and then walk to the side street.

Though, I assume that any unused actions are hide actions. So as long as you aren't running, fighting, casting spells or whatever, your hidden. No one needs to explicitly say it.

 

[Uller]

For the first example... if the PCs did not detect the presence of the witches before the door before opened or otherwise know they were there (Did they hear the witches cast a spell? Did the witches reveal their presence by making noise or leaving obvious tracks?), then the witches count as automatically hidden without expending an action.

I think thats what the stealth vs passive perception check answers. Someone mentioned above that invisibility is not automatic stealth. That is correct...but it sure helps. It seems to me that it should allow the possibility of remaining undetected. Did the PCs hear them cast a spell through a thick ironbound oak door while they fiddled with theives tools? I dunno. Let the roll decide...

Yesterday I came home from work and hadn't noticed my son's car in the driveway. I thought he was at school. He startled me accidentally when he smelled dinner cooking and came down to get something to eat. He didn't actively hide. But I still failed to hear him coming until he was fully in the kitchen.

I have always used stealth rolls like that...for a detected creature to become undected when there is a chance of remaining detected (woodelf trying to fade out of sight as he moves through the forest undergrowth.. can the orcs chasing him keep him in sight?) or for when a creature is undetected but might become detected (the assassin hiding around the corner with a readied crosbow bolt...does his target spot him before he shoots?)

But I think where I went wrong or what didn't sit right with me was the requirement I imposed that for a creature to be hidden (underected and location unknown) they must take the hide action. Surely the elf or the assassin above must both "hide". But if the orcs never knew the elf was there or completely lost site and sound? Then they have to detect him. Sometimes they will..sometimes they won't and the check determines it. If they don't detect him passively but suspect he is there they can move to gave clear linebof sight on where they think he is or they can take the search action to actuvely try to spot him.



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