D&D General The Alexandrian’s Insights In a Nutshell [+]

[QuentinGeorge]

The G series does have a plot, though the giants are so passive by default it's barely emergent. Gygax expected GMs to handle that themselves. KotB OTOH is ALMOST totally static map and key play. So no plot there, though the GM could impose one, or extemporize, and there are some notes that allow for plot development, like the evil priest can do a few things.

Based on the definition of plot in the thread the fact there’s monsters in the cave is plot.

 

[MerricB]

The G series does have a plot, though the giants are so passive by default it's barely emergent. Gygax expected GMs to handle that themselves. KotB OTOH is ALMOST totally static map and key play. So no plot there, though the GM could impose one, or extemporize, and there are some notes that allow for plot development, like the evil priest can do a few things.

I agree, G series certainly has an overall plot. Defeat the Giants in G1, find the secret portal to G2. Defeat the giants in G2, find the secret portal to G3. Defeat the giants in G3, follow the drow into D1...

Within the confines of each module you have more free play with choices made by the characters. Though the situations themselves don't lend them to much beyond "kill every giant you find". (Some DMs will make the monsters fight, plan, and react better than others). But there are defined start and end points to each adventure. The route between those points isn't plotted, as the plot lies above that, but it's certainly there, as you need to fulfil the conditions to move onto the next adventure.

KotB has an vague idea of goals for the party (defeat everything in the Caves of Chaos), and a very ill-defined starting point (the characters have come to the Keep to kill monsters nearby), and that's it.

(Does anyone run the wilderness in Keep on the Borderlands as the party search for the Caves of Chaos, or do they hurry players along to the Caves where the bulk of the fun is?)

Cheers,
Merric

 

[hawkeyefan]

The complete phrase is "don't prep plots, prep situations." It does feel that your view is that what JA would call a "situation," however, still falls under the purview of "plot"

Yeah, pretty much. Mostly because other than the catchphrase itself, everything else he says supports the idea of a plot. Even by his own idiosyncratic take on what plot means. (As an aside, his use of it is jargon… for all the folks who typically call out jargon as problematic).

I don’t think plots are bad. I don’t think it’s bad to tell people to not dictate player decisions. I’m not saying that his advice is bad.

I’m saying that it’s a bit confused. And I think really all it boils down to being afraid of the word plot.

And I think that kind of summarizes a lot of JA’s advice in a nutshell. He takes ideas he’s heard elsewhere and repurposes them and in doing so is not always as clear as the original.

 

[TheSword]

Is @TheSword even still in this thread lol

I am, but I won’t lie, the plots debate took over.

I’ll update the OP with some of the other suggestions raised about character templates and campaign status. Just need to get my head around the ideas so I can summarize them.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Based on the definition of plot in the thread the fact there’s monsters in the cave is plot.

Based on who's definition? lol. I mean, I think Paul's is too restrictive, by his definition essentially there's no such thing as plot in RPGs. OTOH maybe Pemerton is at the other end of the scale. I think, personally, some degree of what I would call plot is mostly inevitable, except in 'crawl' type scenarios, like KotB where the PCs just go room by room in whatever order they feel like and pretty much clean up. G1-3 is more typical for most TSR modules, there's a very weak plot that basically lampshades linear progression through a series of encounters. Then you have something like A1-4 where the thing is 100% on rails.

 

[John Lloyd1]

Based on who's definition? lol. I mean, I think Paul's is too restrictive, by his definition essentially there's no such thing as plot in RPGs. OTOH maybe Pemerton is at the other end of the scale. I think, personally, some degree of what I would call plot is mostly inevitable, except in 'crawl' type scenarios, like KotB where the PCs just go room by room in whatever order they feel like and pretty much clean up. G1-3 is more typical for most TSR modules, there's a very weak plot that basically lampshades linear progression through a series of encounters. Then you have something like A1-4 where the thing is 100% on rails.

I think there is a certain amount of fluidity in these sorts of definitions used in frameworks. By expanding the definitions, you increase the use cases for the framework and apply them in more situations. (For example, in FATE everything is a character).

 

[pemerton]

KotB has an vague idea of goals for the party (defeat everything in the Caves of Chaos), and a very ill-defined starting point (the characters have come to the Keep to kill monsters nearby), and that's it.

(Does anyone run the wilderness in Keep on the Borderlands as the party search for the Caves of Chaos, or do they hurry players along to the Caves where the bulk of the fun is?)

I focus on the Keep, which personally I find more interesting than the caves.

I quite like the hermit, but don't think he has ever come into play in a game I've GMed.

 

[pemerton]

It's just baffling we're having this quibbling over semantics. If all of this is "plot" then Against the Giants was plotted. In fact, even Keep on the Borderlands is plotted! There are no plotless D&D adventures!

Against the Giants absolutely has a plot! We can all easily summarize the plot and it'll be pretty much the same from person to person.

I mean... at the end of each part, the PCs are magically teleported to the start of the next one!

I think, personally, some degree of what I would call plot is mostly inevitable, except in 'crawl' type scenarios, like KotB where the PCs just go room by room in whatever order they feel like and pretty much clean up. G1-3 is more typical for most TSR modules, there's a very weak plot that basically lampshades linear progression through a series of encounters.

I don't remember any plot in KotB - there are no sequences of events presented at all, at least that I recall.

I'm with @AbdulAlhazred that the plot in Against the Giants is weak and lampshading. In this respect it's the same as Keraptis's theft of the weapons in WPM, or the flight from pursuers in Hidden Shrine. The actual fiction the GM is presented with to use in play doesn't have any plot in it.

Everyone knows that the One True Way to play D&D is in a world where absolutely nothing happens unless it is instigated by the players.

If by "instigated by the players" you mean instigated by the players declaring actions for their PCs, then you seem to be describing a pretty boring setting.

If by "instigated by the players" you mean something like having the general character of a 4e D&D player-authored quest then that is certainly a good way to avoid railroading!

 

[Nikosandros]

(Does anyone run the wilderness in Keep on the Borderlands as the party search for the Caves of Chaos, or do they hurry players along to the Caves where the bulk of the fun is?)

I've certainly put the wilderness part to use, but - as I recall - when playing it as a kid for the first time, the DM just skipped to the cavers.

 

[Kannik]

As someone who occasionally teaches storytelling, I will say that discussing things can be downright difficult as so many of these terms are used interchangeably: plot vs narrative vs story vs work vs world vs sequence vs path vs events vs etc. And just when you think you've got them figured out, you meet a different group who have different degrees for what each word pertains to. Within gaming, exactly what entails a railroad can be likewise squishy.

I always preface my classes with how I will be using those words in the session, and letting them know to substitute in their head whatever word works better, or at least get what I'm creating and use that as the lens to comprehend what I'm trying to create and get the intention/context, even if they jettison the terms the moment they hit the door.