Level Up (A5E) Can a spear-thrower be used/reloaded one-handed?

[Sword of Spirit]

Because if it can, it allows basically the equivalent of wielding a greatsword in one hand while using a shield, and being able to throw it 20' without penalty. And anyone with martial weapon proficiency can do this. Strap a few spears to your back and get to it.

Need to know because I have a player trying to convince me that's how it's supposed to work, and I'm trying to run by the book, but I just can't allow that unless I'm absolutely sure it is design intent.

Now, I am willing to work with the player to let him have his requested feat to negate the loading property (like the crossbow feat) so he can use it with Extra Attack, but getting a shield at the same time seems ridiculous.

 

[Anselm]

Because if it can, it allows basically the equivalent of wielding a greatsword in one hand while using a shield, and being able to throw it 20' without penalty. And anyone with martial weapon proficiency can do this. Strap a few spears to your back and get to it.

Need to know because I have a player trying to convince me that's how it's supposed to work, and I'm trying to run by the book, but I just can't allow that unless I'm absolutely sure it is design intent.

Now, I am willing to work with the player to let him have his requested feat to negate the loading property (like the crossbow feat) so he can use it with Extra Attack, but getting a shield at the same time seems ridiculous.

It has the loading property, which means it can only attack once per turn, and it does not have the two-handed property. Looks pretty clear to me that a shield is in the cards. I'd agree that attacking with a great sword from 80 ft away multiple times per turn while holding a shield is ridiculous balance-wise, which is probably why there is no equivalent feat to crossbow expert. You're negating the major downside of this weapon but adding the homebrew feat and allowing them to keep all the benefits. The homebrew feat could easily say that to ignore the loading property you must have 2 free hands if you don't want them to use the shield.

Edit: also worth noting that while using a spear thrower, the wielder does not get the benefits of wielding a spear (ie defensive (heavy)). You didn't ask about that but it effects using it with a shield.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Follow up on the spear-thrower. How would you all interpret the bolded part:

"A spear-thrower can be used to increase the effectiveness of a javelin, spear, or trident. A weapon thrown in this manner deals an additional 1d6 damage when the target is within its normal range."

Would the extra damage apply within the range of the spear or javelin (ie, 20' or 30') or within the expanded range of the spear-thrower (80')?

It seems to me like it really needs to be the shorter range, since a spear-thrower is basically like throwing a greatsword for no more investment than buying a spear-thrower.

 

[Anselm]

Would the extra damage apply within the range of the spear or javelin (ie, 20' or 30') or within the expanded range of the spear-thrower (80')?

The latter. At the point of using the spear-thrower, the javelin, spear, and trident just become ammunition. Their individual stats are moot. The weapon you need to refer to for everything (unless you have some magical ammunition) is the spear-thrower itself.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Thanks. I might just be completely failing my Investigation check, but it just doesn't seem balanced to me. I think maybe if I ask on the general 5e subforum I can get more eyes on it, since this one is a little sparse.

 

[Staffan]

You could compare it to a heavy crossbow. The crossbow deals 1d10 damage instead of 2d6, but has a longer range (100/400 instead of 80/320) and deals full damage within its entire range instead of just in the first increment. The crossbow is also Simple (so everyone's proficient in it), which the spear-thrower isn't. Finally, there's the issue of ammunition. A crossbow gets 20 bolts for 1 gp and 1.5 lbs, while javelins cost 5 sp each and weigh 2 lbs. So if you wanted the same number, that'd be 10 gp and 40 lbs – the gold might be small potatoes, but the weight adds up.

 

[thuter]

Spear throwers do seem to be almost perfect for rogues though, if you can get the proficiency for them somewhere. Since they have the range (80/320) trait they count as ranged weapons (so sneak attack viable) and use dex, as opposed to thrown javelins, and the loading part is no problem at all for rogues as they don't get multi-attack anyways. Sure, heavy crossbows do only a bit less damage (avg 5.5 instead of 7) and have longer range without long-range dropoff, but still.

One question, would javelins used with a spear thrower become ammunition for the purpose of poisons? As you can poison a single weapon, but 3 pieces of ammunition.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Thanks. I might just be completely failing my Investigation check, but it just doesn't seem balanced to me. I think maybe if I ask on the general 5e subforum I can get more eyes on it, since this one is a little sparse.

I think that's because you're considering a homebrew feat. It's more your feat that's the problem. The spear-thrower is good, but not especially broken. Don't do the feat. Or if you do, add something like wat Anselm suggested.

Spear throwers do seem to be almost perfect for rogues though, if you can get the proficiency for them somewhere. Since they have the range (80/320) trait they count as ranged weapons (so sneak attack viable) and use dex, as opposed to thrown javelins, and the loading part is no problem at all for rogues as they don't get multi-attack anyways. Sure, heavy crossbows do only a bit less damage (avg 5.5 instead of 7) and have longer range without long-range dropoff, but still.

One question, would javelins used with a spear thrower become ammunition for the purpose of poisons? As you can poison a single weapon, but 3 pieces of ammunition.

Now, that's a bit of a loophole, isn't it? I would say they "effectively" become ammunition, but don't count as a bundle the way arrows and quarrels do. But I wouldn't fight for it.

 

[thuter]

Yeah, it's mostly a balance thing... Of course it's not intended to be used in a loophole way to poison 3 tridents as ammunition, and then making melee attacks with 3 of them to guarantee 3 poison hits, but viewing them as weapons for spear throwers makes it a worst of both worlds scenario, as you don't get the 'on next hit, apply' part from melee weapons guaranteeing one hit, but only one, and neither the 'you have 3 shots, better make sure they hit' part of ranged weapons, where you get potentially more poison hits, but missing the attack wastes the poison on the ammo. My DM was fine with the non-abusive way to use it (so like a normal ranged weapon with ammunition), but I was curious if there is official ruling on it, other then the RAW where a javelin is a weapon, not ammunition, even when used as such.