Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
But if this is what you want, well... shouldn't you just choose paladin instead of cleric?

I was just going to say something along these lines.

I'd much rather see a robes wearing spell-slinging cleric archetype over the traditional semi-paladin cleric of yore. This would allow for a greater array of character options than what we currently have. If you just want your clerics to bust heads then pick a Paladin.
 

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Imaro

Legend
I was just going to say something along these lines.

I'd much rather see a robes wearing spell-slinging cleric archetype over the traditional semi-paladin cleric of yore. This would allow for a greater array of character options than what we currently have. If you just want your clerics to bust heads then pick a Paladin.

That's pretty much my stance, I like the wider range of archetypes being accommodated... and I think with the Ranger and the Oath of the Ancients paladin this is just as true, if not more so, for the Druid.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Me, I'd much rather the cleric fill the "holy warrior" niche than the "priest" niche. We are talking about adventurers after all. Why would a priest be an adventurer? A priest tends to his or her flock. A priest has duties and responsibilities that generally tie that priest to a specific location.

Whereas a "holy warrior" of this or that diety isn't tied to a flock. That character is meant to go forth and do battle on behalf of whatever diety is being worshipped.

You mention rogues as not being different from fighters. After all, they stab stuff just like a fighter. But, only, not really. The rogue is limited to certain kinds of weapons, and, since they don't get extra attacks, they are always looking to deal that sneak attack damage. It changes, significantly, how they play and they play VERY differently from a fighter.

But a land druid? Or a non War domain cleric? Yeah, they're not different enough, AFAIC, from a sorcerer or wizard. Often doing pretty much exactly the same thing. I'm sorry, but, "I do d8 radiant" vs "I do d10 fire" damage isn't enough to make much of a difference. Whoopee. They are both still standing off and lobbing spells. And the attack cantrips very strongly push clerics and land druids to do exactly that and not actually use straight up attacks.

I mean, you’re taking 1 cantrip each and saying that because these two cantrips are both “I deal XdY Z damage”, the classes are basically the same. That’s totally absurd. Both classes have other cantrips. More importantly, both classes have features other than cantrips, that are their primary means of engaging in combat. Cantrips are the backup, not the main tactic.

As for priests, please don’t get hung up on the word. It isn’t the point. The cleric being a holy person who can call down the wrath of the gods on their enemies doesn’t have anything to do with being stuck in a parish.

But even if we changed the name to Priest, there are priests IRL who rather than a parish, have a mission that involves going out into the world and doing “good”. In a world like dnd, there would absolutely be priestly orders that go into the dangerous places of the world to shine the light of the gods into the darkness, bring people hope, help save the weak from the predatory strong, etc. Ya know, the stuff clerics do. None of which requires armor and a mace.

In fact, it would be even more appropriate to their fluff if they had an AC calculation class feature.

I’d also be perfectly happy to see Clerics get the ability at level 5 to add 1d8 radiant damage to a weapon attack, once per turn. Upgrade to 2d8 at 11, and 3d8 at 17. Let the cleric smack things, but not like a fighter.

I imagine if the rogue hits things differently enough from the fighter, you’d be fine with that?

But also, speaking of which, how is the rogue more different from fighters than Druids and clerics are from wizards? They literally just run up and deal X weapon damage. What, number of attacks is dramatically different while different damage, range, method of resolution (save vs attack), aren’t different? Really?
 


RhaezDaevan

Explorer
The 5e cleric class is not just representing the cleric of the past (warrior-priest), but also incorporated some of the 4e invoker, which was a pew-pew priest. Some might argue there isn't enough pew-pew to build an invoker-esque cleric, but domain spells help with that.

The druid has been a nature-themed mix of cleric and wizard since 0e d&d. I don't see them ever being melee-focused outside of wildshape without multiclassing.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
They go pew-pew-pew casting Sacred Flame etc repeatedly, instead of hitting things like St Cuthbert intended!

edit: not planning to respond further, I was just giving my feeling, you're entitled to yours.

So any spell casting is “pew pew”?
 

Hussar

Legend
But if this is what you want, well... shouldn't you just choose paladin instead of cleric?

Well, considering the "holy warrior" thing has been part and parcel to clerics since day 1, I'm rather shocked [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] that you would go this route. I thought you were all about maintaining traditions.

But, for me, if the cleric is using magic as the primary source of combat damage, then, well, that character is just a themed wizard. What's the difference?

Clerics have always been a close second to fighters in combat. Now, they're a wizard in armor with a bit more hit points.

/snip

I’d also be perfectly happy to see Clerics get the ability at level 5 to add 1d8 radiant damage to a weapon attack, once per turn. Upgrade to 2d8 at 11, and 3d8 at 17. Let the cleric smack things, but not like a fighter.

That would be my favorite solution as well. Nicely flavorful. Makes actually having weapons and armor work for the character instead of against it.

I imagine if the rogue hits things differently enough from the fighter, you’d be fine with that?

But also, speaking of which, how is the rogue more different from fighters than Druids and clerics are from wizards? They literally just run up and deal X weapon damage. What, number of attacks is dramatically different while different damage, range, method of resolution (save vs attack), aren’t different? Really?

Well, a rogue's primary damage source is sneak attack. So, the rogue is constantly looking for ways to deal that sneak attack which changes how the rogue is played considerably from a fighter. Not too many fighters will be looking to hide every round so they can snipe from the shadows, for example. Which, right there, makes a rogue play considerably differently from a fighter.

What's the difference between firebolt and sacred flame? One is an attack roll and one is a saving throw. Range is different I suppose. But, from the player's perspective, you act exactly the same in both cases. You stand off and chuck the spell. Both the cleric and the wizard are in the back rank chucking damaging spells.

IOW, they play very, very much the same. Minor cosmetic differences (oh, I attack a saving throw vs I attack an AC) isn't really much of a change.
 

Hussar

Legend
So any spell casting is “pew pew”?

Don't be obtuse.

Any spell casting that is effectively at will for Xd8 (or so) damage is pew pew. I mean, again, what's the difference between what you do when you cast firebolt and what you do when you cast sacred flame? In both cases, you stand back, shoot the spell and deal the damage. Just like there really isn't a whole lot of difference between a longsword and a two handed sword. Yup, one does d8 and one does 2d6 and that's about it. One character using a longsword and one using a greatsword aren't really all that different are they?

And before you get into class abilities and feats, note, NONE of that applies to cantrips. It's not like a cleric could choose a fighting style like a fighter can that applies to using cantrips. There are very few feats that apply to cantrips and those that do don't really change how the spell is used - either a straight up damage bonus or a range bonus. Whoopee.

I don't think that clerics and druids should have cantrips that are more effective than their attacks. Again, what's the point of having weapons and armor if you never actually use them?
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Maybe all spellcasters should be a themed wizard. One spell list with different ways of interacting with them via subclasses.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Maybe all spellcasters should be a themed wizard. One spell list with different ways of interacting with them via subclasses.
If sub-classes included alternatives to spellbooks (or that spellbook is a sub-class feature that gives you the sub-class adds), that could work.

Establish INT as the arcana mastery stat just like WIS is the divine and CHA covers socials (maybe also all the "amateur" casters (the halfs and thirds))

Could easily see it.

Narratively and mechanically, you could have the first two levels of ARCANIST be your basic features and at third level when you pass beyond novice to get end level spells you pick your sub-class that reveals your "true power" or "path to real power" be it from spellbooks and study, bloodlines, cut deal with patron, Fey changeling, a scion, secret elixirs and potions, clever devices and foci etc etc etc etc.

Could be quite awesome, streamlined and very msnageable.
 

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