Castle Greyhawk/Zagyg

[Dragonhelm]

My intro to Castle Greyhawk was through WG7 Castle Greyhawk. I know, I know. I started on the "wrong foot." Despite that, I had fun.

As I grew older and started to learn more about Castle Greyhawk's history, I began to pick up other products related to Gary Gygax’s infamous castle. In more recent years, I’ve picked up Expedition to the Greyhawk Ruins and Yggsburgh.

My intent was to collect all the Castle Zagyg products. As I looked some of them up online, I see that the prices of some of them are outrageous. The Upper Works boxed set goes anywhere from $225 to $300. I find I’m conflicted, as my inner collector wants a complete Castle Greyhawk, while another portion of me says that $300 better equal Ptolus times three! Dark Chateau is also very expensive, selling at around $100 new and $170 used (figure that one out).

Thing is, I wonder if I (or even fandom in general) have made Castle Greyhawk out to be more magnificent than what it truly is. My understanding is that the castle proper was largely notes and outlines that Gary created, and were never fleshed out.

So how do you all approach Castle Greyhawk? Do you have any products that you look at as being the one true castle? Do you explain it in-world that the Castle is surrounded by myths and legends, some of which aren’t true? Do you just use any old mega-dungeon and call it Castle Greyhawk? And would you ever spend $200 - $300 trying to get the Upper Works boxed set?

 

[TerraDave]

Thing is, I wonder if I (or even fandom in general) have made Castle Greyhawk out to be more magnificent than what it truly is. My understanding is that the castle proper was largely notes and outlines that Gary created, and were never fleshed out.

Well informed people have expressed such views, albiet sometimes privately...

From the little I know, the first Caslte Greyhawk was a rough and wild place, with bit and pieces that found there way into OD&D, Dragon and parts of other adventures. At some point there was sort of a reboot with Rob Kuntz, the other greyhawk DM.

From what I have read, the current castle zagyg products are supposed to be good, and Gygaxian, but barely reached the "dungeon" part of the castle, and hence the areas that might actually be like the original.

In any case, expections may have very well gotten ahead of reality. Which in turn led to the many delays in Gygax actually producing a Castle Greyhawk he was willing to share with the world.

 

[Filcher]

Edit.

 

[jaerdaph]

The Greyhawk Grognard Joe Bloch has been designing his version of this famous mega-dungeon called The Castle of the Mad Archmage based on comments made by Gary et al. over the years about the original. It conveniently picks up at Level 2 where Troll Lord Games' Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works left off. I've been helping Joe out with the maps.

If you don't have a copy of Upper Works (or don't want to procure an OOP copy for mega bucks $$$), Rath's The Mad Demigod's Castle presents Level 1: The Storage Rooms is the perfect substitute and conveniently links up to Level 2 of The Castle of the Mad Archmage. I gave Rath a hand with the maps on that one too.

You can check out some poster size versions of the maps here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/art-ga...ps-dungeons-floorplans-etc-2.html#post4785369

 

[DaveMage]

Thing is, I wonder if I (or even fandom in general) have made Castle Greyhawk out to be more magnificent than what it truly is. My understanding is that the castle proper was largely notes and outlines that Gary created, and were never fleshed out.

The only time I have played in it was in the 2E product, Greyhawk Ruins (WGR1), and though Gygax wasn't involved with it (as far as I know), it was a lot of fun. It is the only product that completely describes all areas of the castle (though, again, not Gary's castle).

Since we will never have Gary's complete version, I see the other products as "alternate" options.

So how do you all approach Castle Greyhawk? Do you have any products that you look at as being the one true castle? Do you explain it in-world that the Castle is surrounded by myths and legends, some of which aren’t true? Do you just use any old mega-dungeon and call it Castle Greyhawk? And would you ever spend $200 - $300 trying to get the Upper Works boxed set?

WGR1 would be the closest to the "true" castle for me, if only because it's complete. As for spending $200 - $300 for the upper works, no, I would not say it's worth it. I bought it when it first came out from the Troll Lords since I knew this would likely happen (since it was Gary's last D&D-like product). It details so little of the castle (relatively), and it's only for levels 1-3.

 

[MerricB]

I do have the Upper Works and, although good, it fails to actually deal with the real meat of Castle Greyhawk: the Dungeons.

The Mouths of Madness were rather nice - very Caves of Chaos - which ring the first level, and there are some interesting first level stuff as well, but it was the deeper material that we really wanted and didn't get.

My current campaign began with the Mouths of Madness, but the rest of the Upper Works has basically been ignored. I have my own maps and levels for what lies beneath, and I add more stuff from time to time. The dungeon isn't entirely consistent with itself, but it's probably because of all of the sublevels (they don't all connect up!)

Cheers!

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

So how do you all approach Castle Greyhawk?

In the past, I have run Greyhawk Ruins, although I wasn't very happy with it. Today, I'd simply roll my own version of Castle Greyhawk.

Do you have any products that you look at as being the one true castle?

In my opinion, the closest are Rob Kuntz's material from the Lake Geneva campaign. Those were actual sections of Castle Greyhawk dungeons, and Pied Piper is publishing some of the original maps (i.e. hand drawn on graph paper) along with annotations and descriptions. Probably the best example, to date is Bottle City.

The Upper Works boxed set is nice, but is more of a reimagined and redone Castle Greyhawk, and only covers the upper ruins and the first level of the dungeon.

A great deal of useful information about Castle Greyhawk has been put together by grodog. See his version of Castle Greyhawk, which includes grodog's material and also notes on what is known about the original castle and dungeons.

And would you ever spend $200 - $300 trying to get the Upper Works boxed set?

Hmm. Unless you're a collector or you consider several hundred dollars to be a minor purchase, I wouldn't advise it.

 

[grodog]

My intro to Castle Greyhawk was through WG7 Castle Greyhawk. I know, I know. I started on the "wrong foot." Despite that, I had fun.

That was the first version published, so, if you think about it, you started at the beginning, even if it wasn't Gary's and Rob's Castle. So, you didn't do anything wrong

My intent was to collect all the Castle Zagyg products. As I looked some of them up online, I see that the prices of some of them are outrageous. The Upper Works boxed set goes anywhere from $225 to $300. I find I’m conflicted, as my inner collector wants a complete Castle Greyhawk, while another portion of me says that $300 better equal Ptolus times three! Dark Chateau is also very expensive, selling at around $100 new and $170 used (figure that one out).

I've seen copies of CZ sell for $85-125 within the past few months, so you just need to keep an eye out on the auction. I'd say that paying up to $125 or so is worth it for CZ if you're a big Greyhawk and/or Gygax and/or Jeffrey Talanian fan; otherwise, you're better off waiting for another (cheaper) auction. There's a copy on eBay right now @ GARY GYGAX CASTLE ZAGYG THE UPPER WORKS NEW BOXED SET - eBay (item 180456289007 end time Jan-20-10 18:39:13 PST) (at $117 with 5 days left to go).

Those Dark Chateau prices are way over-inflated: you should be able to find copies of this in many games stores (it was released at least a year or two before CZ:UW), and/or used bookstores, and/or on Amazon and other bookseller sites. There are two printings, in case you care, but I wouldn't pay more than $15 or so for it---not because it's not good, but because you should really be able to find a copy for $10 or less. NobleKnight doesn't have any copies atm @ NOBLE KNIGHT GAMES - Where the Out-of-Print is Available Again but they do have most of the rest of Rob's Pied Piper products in stock.

Thing is, I wonder if I (or even fandom in general) have made Castle Greyhawk out to be more magnificent than what it truly is. My understanding is that the castle proper was largely notes and outlines that Gary created, and were never fleshed out.

That's both correct and incorrect: the original level keys I've read from Castles Greyhawk and El Raja Key and Maure Castle were pretty barebones in terms of content, but that is not always the case---the original manuscript notes for Bottle City are pretty extensive in several areas as well. In each case, however, the key difference of keyed encounters vs. the same encounters in gameplay is that Gary and Rob would riff off of the original notes, and improvise encounter content, dungeon dressing, and the general dungeons environment, both based on their whims at the time, as well as previous explorations, and in response to what the players were bringing to the table.

Several excellent reviews of CZ:UW were written in the few months following its release, if you want to assess whether or not you really want to shell out the $$$ for it; see Joe Bloch's @ Greyhawk Grognard: Review: Castle Zagyg, Vol. II: The Upper Works and James Maliszewski's @ GROGNARDIA: REVIEW: Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works (Part I of III) and my own @ http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_grodog_castle_zagyg_review_final.pdf (I'm sure I'm forgetting a few that were out around the same time, too).

So how do you all approach Castle Greyhawk? Do you have any products that you look at as being the one true castle? Do you explain it in-world that the Castle is surrounded by myths and legends, some of which aren’t true? Do you just use any old mega-dungeon and call it Castle Greyhawk? And would you ever spend $200 - $300 trying to get the Upper Works boxed set?

I explore, share, and develop my personal version of Castle Greyhawk @
grodog's Greyhawk Castle Archive: grodog's Version of Greyhawk Castle and you were already pointed to Joe Bloch's levels.

I'm a huge Greyhawk fan, and I wouldn't pay $200-$300 for a CZ:UW set (and I have spent quite a bit more than that on original Greyhawk manuscripts in the past, including six of Rob's original GH Castle level maps---ones that he is working on publishing this year, thankfully ).

In my opinion, the closest are Rob Kuntz's material from the Lake Geneva campaign. Those were actual sections of Castle Greyhawk dungeons, and Pied Piper is publishing some of the original maps (i.e. hand drawn on graph paper) along with annotations and descriptions. Probably the best example, to date is Bottle City.

I agree completely; also worth checking out are The Living Room (an extended encounter originally set in Greyhawk Castle), and WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (1985 TSR)/Maure Castle (Paizo's Dungeon #112, 124, 139, and continued on the PPP web site with some freebie downloads), as well as Garden of the Plantmaster (which has links to the Lost City of the Elders/WG5, too). Other PPP releases were set in Greyhawk's wilderness, but within the Castle itself.

A great deal of useful information about Castle Greyhawk has been put together by grodog. See his version of Castle Greyhawk, which includes grodog's material and also notes on what is known about the original castle and dungeons.

Thanks for the plug, Jason! Just to clarify: my Castle Greyhawk research and lore at grodog's Greyhawk Castle Archive vs. the above link, which is my personal vision/version for Castle Greyhawk. I've also been posting new level maps for my Castle Greyhawk dungeons to the Megadungeons! forum at Knights & Knaves @ KNIGHTS & KNAVES ALEHOUSE :: View Forum - Megadungeons! (several of those maps haven't quite made it into my site updates yet, but should soon-ish).

 

[Dragonhelm]

That was the first version published, so, if you think about it, you started at the beginning, even if it wasn't Gary's and Rob's Castle. So, you didn't do anything wrong

Thanks, man. I think I needed to hear that.

I sometimes feel guilty for liking the module, but it was my first exposure to the castle. Plus, I like the bad puns.

I explore, share, and develop my personal version of Castle Greyhawk @
grodog's Greyhawk Castle Archive: grodog's Version of Greyhawk Castle and you were already pointed to Joe Bloch's levels.

I'll try to check that out.

I'm a huge Greyhawk fan, and I wouldn't pay $200-$300 for a CZ:UW set (and I have spent quite a bit more than that on original Greyhawk manuscripts in the past, including six of Rob's original GH Castle level maps---ones that he is working on publishing this year, thankfully ).

Glad to hear that, too.

I just need to tell my inner collector to hush. Sure, I'd like to have all of the castle, but that's just way too much. Maybe someday the prices will drop some. One can only hope.

Thanks for chiming in, man. And thanks to everyone for all the Castle Greyhawk lore.

Now, if I could just find where I put my copy of Expedition to the Greyhawk Ruins....

 

[Treebore]

You know what Gary's Greyhawk legacy is? Do it yourself and make it your own. Its all he ever wanted us all to do with the game he created, let alone adventures.

So do it yourself, feel right about it, and most of all, have fun doing it.

That is Gary's Castle Greyhawk.