Castle Maure - Not All That

[Grimstaff]

I think what a lot of people might not get is that D&D was originally much less linear. Computer games have kind of changed that ethic, the sense that you must go in the front door and stay until you exit the rear, after defeating the big bad guy in the last room. Adventures like Castle Maure are much more useful as a constant, evolving presence in the campaign, a place to put "quest"-type items for recovery, to find lost knowledge, etc. As one post above stated, they finished about 75% and then got bored. The dungeon was really designed with short excursions in mind. Its a place where multiple parties are probably exploring, and various cults and evil factions are involved as well. My group has been in twice, and had fun both times, and now they are starting to hear rumors of a newly-discovered library deep in the dungeon and are planning a possible third foray.
As to exploiting the background material, some folks seem to be treating the major NPCs as "fight-to-the-death" encounters, which is unlikely for high-level enemies. Usually these guys are going to try and bargain their way out of a pinch, and have several escape contingencies in place. Place these guys intelligently and you will get much more milage out of them.
Parties that make liberal use of Speak With Dead, bardic lore, etc, will also get alot more out of the background material!

 

[Numion]

I think what a lot of people might not get is that D&D was originally much less linear. Computer games have kind of changed that ethic, the sense that you must go in the front door and stay until you exit the rear, after defeating the big bad guy in the last room.

This is news to me, and contradicts my own memories of 1e. D&D players have since time immemorial advanced through dungeons level by level. Dungeon crawls have always been linear in the way you describe, but generally speaking I just can't see it. While some dungeons still are linear, todays adventures like Barakus, Vault of Larinn Karr, Banewarrens, Trouble at Durbenford etc .. aren't, while they involve dungeons.

Could you back that up with some examples? (I mean back up the claim that D&D has become more linear, since the adventures haven't).

As to exploiting the background material, some folks seem to be treating the major NPCs as "fight-to-the-death" encounters, which is unlikely for high-level enemies. Usually these guys are going to try and bargain their way out of a pinch, and have several escape contingencies in place. Place these guys intelligently and you will get much more milage out of them.
Parties that make liberal use of Speak With Dead, bardic lore, etc, will also get alot more out of the background material!

Don't you think that leaving information gathering to the phase where the villain is beat to snot or speaking with dead is pushing it a bit for 15th level adventure? It's pretty easy for the players to disintegrate the villain and the information at those levels even before the villain tries to surrender.

 

[Xombie Master]

Our group has a term for dungeons full of monsters that have no reason to coexist that just seem to be waiting for combat with the PC's. We call it a Gygax.

 

[D'karr]

Don't you think that leaving information gathering to the phase where the villain is beat to snot or speaking with dead is pushing it a bit for 15th level adventure? It's pretty easy for the players to disintegrate the villain and the information at those levels even before the villain tries to surrender.

We could make that comparison with any module, since that is a function of how a group plays, more than how an adventure can be played.

The Banewarrens, Vault of Larin Karr, Lost city of Barakus can be as much of a dungeon crawl as anything else if the MO for the players is always shoot first ask questions later. The presentation of the background information is up to each individual DM, and Maure Castle has a lot of background information.

If the DM always begins an encounter with "roll for initiative" that is a problem with an unimaginative DM.

Maure Castle can have a lot of "storytelling" because the BBEG have specific goals that they want to achieve. If the DM just throws the NPCs into combat as soon as the door opens then that is a problem with the DM.

Granted, many groups prefer the shoot first ask questions later way of playing. Just because you did not necessarily enjoy Maure Castle does not mean that other groups might not have enjoyed it quite a bit.

Different strokes for different folk.

 

[Grimstaff]

This is news to me, and contradicts my own memories of 1e. D&D players have since time immemorial advanced through dungeons level by level. Dungeon crawls have always been linear in the way you describe, but generally speaking I just can't see it. While some dungeons still are linear, todays adventures like Barakus, Vault of Larinn Karr, Banewarrens, Trouble at Durbenford etc .. aren't, while they involve dungeons.

Could you back that up with some examples? (I mean back up the claim that D&D has become more linear, since the adventures haven't).

Well, there are plentiful resources on the net detailing Gygax's Castle Greyhawk, Kuntz's Castle Maure, and Arneson's Castle Blackmoor and a great many anecdotes about how they were played. The dungeons were a constant presence in the campaigns, but never ever adventured from beginning to end, so your statement about what dungeons were from time immemorial is a bit off. Of course, having had the opportunity to sit at a gaming table with these guys a few times gave me a little "first hand" experience of the style as well;-). If you want some good examples of how linear D&D got, you can pretty much look at most modules from Dragonlance on up to WotC's "adventure path". "Railroading" is putting it kindly.

Don't you think that leaving information gathering to the phase where the villain is beat to snot or speaking with dead is pushing it a bit for 15th level adventure? It's pretty easy for the players to disintegrate the villain and the information at those levels even before the villain tries to surrender.

So you think its any less easy for the 15th level villain to resist the pounding, get rezzed, become a constant thorn in the party's side if played intelligently rather than just as a brute-force punch-dummy? Come on. A good example is the ranger and her tiger from level 2 (IIRC) of Maure. She got in several hit-and-run attacks on the party, led them into traps, hit them when they were weakened from other encounters, and even parleyed with them twice. I suppose I could have just thrown her into brute combat and watched the party take her apart like nothing, but how could I justify her becoming a high level ranger with a mentality like that? Regardless though, you have to acknowledge that "shoot first, ask questions later" is hardly a revolutionary tactic, so I should think that would be a good reason for the players to pick up some fluff info after the fight...

 

[Grimstaff]

If the DM always begins an encounter with "roll for initiative" that is a problem with an unimaginative DM.

Maure Castle can have a lot of "storytelling" because the BBEG have specific goals that they want to achieve. If the DM just throws the NPCs into combat as soon as the door opens then that is a problem with the DM.

Granted, many groups prefer the shoot first ask questions later way of playing. Just because you did not necessarily enjoy Maure Castle does not mean that other groups might not have enjoyed it quite a bit.

Different strokes for different folk.

(Grimstaff acknowledges being beaten to the punch)

 

[D'karr]

(Grimstaff acknowledges being beaten to the punch)

Sorry for stealing your thunder...

You makes some very good points, though.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm not a fan of the Maure Castle module either. I think Paizo is doing a great job and I love the Shackled City stuff but Maure Castle didn't deserve the ENnie for best module. :\

 

[D'karr]

I'm not a fan of the Maure Castle module either. I think Paizo is doing a great job and I love the Shackled City stuff but Maure Castle didn't deserve the ENnie for best module. :\

Interesting observation since the ENnies are determined by voting. Obviously enough people thought it did deserve it.

 

[GlassJaw]

Interesting observation since the ENnies are determined by voting. Obviously enough people thought it did deserve it.

Exactly. Then again, what do I know?