An elven cleric who increases Dex and Wisdom and avoids Charisma dependant powers works perfectly well. Take the Ranger MC to pick up Stealth and you can even add a few ranged attack powers if you want to pack some longer ranged punch.
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Challenge: Balanced Stealthy Party
- Thread starter Prestidigitalis
- Start date
Orcus Porkus
First Post
I'd say if being discovered by failing stealth check is deadly, and must be avoided at all costs, I would not look for stealth related stuff at all, because the likelyhood of one character failing at one point is high.
Search the compendium for teleportation and invisibility. Tons of options, and a lot depends on the level, and what kind of items you are allowed to carry. Both invisibility and teleportation allows for escape tactics should stealth fail.
Also consider Doppelganger race. They enjoy a racial at-will that will help you a lot:
Effect: You can alter your physical form to take on the appearance of any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual.
Search the compendium for teleportation and invisibility. Tons of options, and a lot depends on the level, and what kind of items you are allowed to carry. Both invisibility and teleportation allows for escape tactics should stealth fail.
Also consider Doppelganger race. They enjoy a racial at-will that will help you a lot:
Effect: You can alter your physical form to take on the appearance of any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Orcus Porkus: Interesting suggestion. Obviously, it depends on the level and the exact details of the campaign's "stealth challenges". Is the goal to be effectively invisible (not noticed) or to be unworthy of attention (not interesting).
I wasn't specific, for the simple reason that I was (and am) more interested in seeing a good discussion than in the specific answers.
Here's what I'm going for: most CharOp threads focus on combat; but what can you do when you have another constraint -- must be viable in combat and <additional constraint>. Since so much of combat CharOp revolves around clanky armor, it seemed like stealth was a good additional constraint to examine.
Danceofmasks: I don't want to limit your ideas, so feel free to use any races that *you* consider legitimate. I would like to see a party that works at low levels, though -- not necessarily level 1, but say level 3 and beyond.
Still interested?
I wasn't specific, for the simple reason that I was (and am) more interested in seeing a good discussion than in the specific answers.
Here's what I'm going for: most CharOp threads focus on combat; but what can you do when you have another constraint -- must be viable in combat and <additional constraint>. Since so much of combat CharOp revolves around clanky armor, it seemed like stealth was a good additional constraint to examine.
Danceofmasks: I don't want to limit your ideas, so feel free to use any races that *you* consider legitimate. I would like to see a party that works at low levels, though -- not necessarily level 1, but say level 3 and beyond.
Still interested?
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Cadfan: I find it amusing that you have 100 times as many posts as I do. Maybe if I had continue posting continually using my old account from 2001, I'd be close.
Morgan_Scott82
First Post
I'm going to look at this in a different way.
If the DM is making a campaign in which stealth is essential, he should give out Skill training as a bonus feat at 1st level. People who don't have stealth as a class skill get stealth, people who have stealth as a class skill get a different skill to round out the party skill list.
Training is probably enough for most of the party, sure the dex focused characters will do well to focus on increasing stealth, but if a DM is writing a campaign in which everyone needs an absolutely maxxed stealth check he's asking too much of his players and unfairly favoring Dex based classes.
If the DM is making a campaign in which stealth is essential, he should give out Skill training as a bonus feat at 1st level. People who don't have stealth as a class skill get stealth, people who have stealth as a class skill get a different skill to round out the party skill list.
Training is probably enough for most of the party, sure the dex focused characters will do well to focus on increasing stealth, but if a DM is writing a campaign in which everyone needs an absolutely maxxed stealth check he's asking too much of his players and unfairly favoring Dex based classes.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I would not discard a wizard from such a game.
Instead I would go with a Tiefling wizard (higher dex), eventually trained in stealth (though they will already have a decent stealth score as it is). Feats: Hellfire Blood, Leather Armor, Improved Init, Skill Training: Stealth. I'd probably choose Scorching Burst and Illusory Ambush for at-wills, Burning Hands for encounter, and Flaming Sphere for Daily. You will have a good AC, good damage output, and good selection of stealthy options.
A wizard's cantrips can be very powerful tools for a stealthy campaign. It's useful to be able to at-will: whisper in someone's ear, telekinetically move 20# of stuff, create an image of anything they want to show the party, light up a foes area while keeping your own area in the dark, create a distraction through ghost sound, turn a hand-held object invisible, and many other cantrip-generated tricks.
No other class can utilize that wealth of stealthy tools at-will. Leaving the wizard out for that kind of game would be a mistake.
Instead I would go with a Tiefling wizard (higher dex), eventually trained in stealth (though they will already have a decent stealth score as it is). Feats: Hellfire Blood, Leather Armor, Improved Init, Skill Training: Stealth. I'd probably choose Scorching Burst and Illusory Ambush for at-wills, Burning Hands for encounter, and Flaming Sphere for Daily. You will have a good AC, good damage output, and good selection of stealthy options.
A wizard's cantrips can be very powerful tools for a stealthy campaign. It's useful to be able to at-will: whisper in someone's ear, telekinetically move 20# of stuff, create an image of anything they want to show the party, light up a foes area while keeping your own area in the dark, create a distraction through ghost sound, turn a hand-held object invisible, and many other cantrip-generated tricks.
No other class can utilize that wealth of stealthy tools at-will. Leaving the wizard out for that kind of game would be a mistake.
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LightPhoenix
First Post
Not to mention Wizards eventually get Invisibility and Greater Invisibility.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I'd steer away from basing a 'stealthy' campaign purely on stealth. It tends to make for a boring game (every single mission is "roll lots of stealth checks, then fight something). Doubly so if failing a stealth check means failing the task at hand. At that point, throwing away every aspect of a character that does not involve stealth becomes the prime tactic. Make an normal party, pump dex, take stealth training and focus, and expect anyone who can't make use of high dex to suck relatively speaking.
If 'stealthy' also leaves room for social interaction, then more characters will be viable. There's not really much reason to specifically suspect that a heavily armoured warrior in a well-defended installation is out-of-place if he's wearing the appropriate uniform.
At that point, everyone should have half-decent stealth plus a trained social skill or two. That means that every class has a build that they can utilise. Cha paladins, dex warriors, any rogue, ranged rangers, wand wizards (strange that there is no cha-based wizard...), cha clerics, cha warlocks, cha warlords...
If 'stealthy' also leaves room for social interaction, then more characters will be viable. There's not really much reason to specifically suspect that a heavily armoured warrior in a well-defended installation is out-of-place if he's wearing the appropriate uniform.
At that point, everyone should have half-decent stealth plus a trained social skill or two. That means that every class has a build that they can utilise. Cha paladins, dex warriors, any rogue, ranged rangers, wand wizards (strange that there is no cha-based wizard...), cha clerics, cha warlocks, cha warlords...
Prestidigitalis
First Post
So, it looks like the general response to my question could be summarized as "Stealth-focused Campaign = You're Doing it Wrong". I can accept that -- I haven't done any DM-ing since 1980 and thus have no good claim to competence in campaign design.
If I may then, I'd like to steer the conversation to "How can a DM introduce a greater emphasis on stealth and subtlety within the context of 4e rules?" Feel free to rephrase the question if you like -- my goal is to talk about the game as more than just combat plus a couple of Diplomacy-based skill challenges.
