D&D 5E Challenging a tanky one-trick pony PC

[pukunui]

Hi all,

I am running Dungeon of the Mad Mage for one of my groups. The PCs are pretty close to hitting level 13, and one of my players has found an annoyingly effective combination of class features and combat tactics that make his PC something of an unkillable one-trick pony who makes fights too easy more often than not. The other players all love how effective his PC is at making fights easier, of course, so I'm looking for some ways to shake things up so he can't always rely on the same tactic.

The PC in question is a dwarf forge cleric 7 / watcher paladin 4 / storm sorcerer 1. He has an AC of 23 thanks to his plate armor, shield, cloak of protection and class features, and what he likes to do is wade into melee next to the fighter and the barbarian, cast spirit guardians, then dodge to impose disadvantage on anyone trying to attack him to disrupt the spell. He also has the Protection fighting style, so once per round he can reduce incoming damage to one of the other PCs standing next to him. If he doesn't use that, he also has the option of casting either shield or absorb elements to further protect himself (and lessen the likelihood of losing spirit guardians).

One way I could deal with this is have the group face more enemies who can cast dispel magic. Another way might be to use the same tactics against the PCs and see how they like a taste of their own medicine. Has anyone got any other ideas?

Again, I'm not looking to punish my players or take away their cool toys. I'm just looking for ways to shake them out of their habits and get a little more variety into the way they approach combats in the dungeon.

In case it matters, the other PCs are a human evoker 12, a dwarf berserker 12, a half-orc samurai 12, and a half-elf swashbuckler 7 / hexblade 5 (who likes to use the other annoyingly effective darkness + Devil's Sight combo).

Your thoughts would be most appreciated.


EDIT: I forgot to mention previously that the PC also has the Lucky feat, so even if I do manage to roll well enough to get through the disadvantage and the high AC, three times per day at least he can just force me to reroll (which generally means I'll miss).

On top of that, the PCs have just leveled up to 13, and I see that the player has finally taken War Caster, so now the PC has advantage on his Con saves to maintain spell concentration on top of everything else. Sigh ...


EDIT 2: The forge cleric's player couldn't make it to a few sessions. I ruled that Halaster had snatched him away to give the monsters on the level the group was exploring more of a fighting chance. When the player returned, his PC only remembered dreaming of weird spider-like crystalline creatures and strange purplish lozenges. Now, every time he uses his one-trick pony tactic, Halaster is going to teleport in a mage hunter or two (with the Mage Slayer feat) from the Strixhaven book. We'll see how he likes that!

 

[aco175]

I find it frustrating with certain builds or gimmicks that players choose or use repeatedly. Some you can just let the player have the win or you can talk to him about 'gamming' the system and making the fights too easy. You could be more aversive and have the bad guys all run away until the spell wears off and then 3 encounters worth of monsters come out to fight. You could have random dispel effects strike from the dungeon saying that repeated use of spells angers Hallaster or such.

You could always introduce them to this and disintegrate them or teleport them minus their stuff to the entrance of the dungeon. 1e did have ways of dealing with problems.

 

[Clint_L]

Beholders with minions are excellent enemies for one-trick pony players, and they will have more fun when they have to think outside of the box and problem solve for real. And there are tons of other creatures that can really screw with a party that is overly reliant on tank'n'spank tactics.

Also, use the environment to make the fights more interesting. Make it difficult for him to just wade into the battle beside the tanks. It kind of sounds like you (or the pre-published adventure) are throwing similar challenges at them, and they've cracked the code.

And play the monsters like they are intelligent and good at fighting (assuming they are those things). As DM, it is your job to try to win while playing the enemies as realistically as possible, which generally means trying to use their own tactics once they see what the party is doing.

Edit: or yeah, there's the "Tomb of Horrors" option if you want to go nuclear on them.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Just use a bigger map, I'd say.

Give them multiple objectives across a larger area so he can't cover everyone and has to make choices.

Edit: Or yeah, do exactly the thing you said you didn't want to do and punish them with cheapness.

 

[humble minion]

Your group seems very melee focused. A group of skirmishing ranged enemies who retreat rather than engage in melee might be a challenge for them. A couple of archer rangers and/or druids who can cast Spike Growth would be an interesting option, because Spike Growth ignores AC and elemental resistance.

Also, how is a forge cleric casting Shield?

 

[pukunui]

Your group seems very melee focused. A group of skirmishing ranged enemies who retreat rather than engage in melee might be a challenge for them. A couple of archer rangers and/or druids who can cast Spike Growth would be an interesting option, because Spike Growth ignores AC and elemental resistance.

Oh yes, spike growth is painful! That could be a fun one.

Also, how is a forge cleric casting Shield?

It's that one level of sorcerer ... which he took for in-game reasons (the one time I did manage to take his PC down was through multiple lightning bolt spells, so he reasoned that his PC had become magically charged up in response, hence the choice of storm sorcerer). I did point out to him that without the War Caster feat, he has to have a free hand to cast shield and absorb elements, since they have somatic components but not material ones. A small win, as his PC no longer carries a weapon ... not that he was ever any good at hitting anything with his mace anyway. Toll the dead is much more painful.

I should add that the player also took the Dungeon Delver feat so that he could automatically discover all the secret doors (and have resistance to damage from all traps - and because it's a mega-dungeon, everything must be a trap, right? Sigh ...). I did point out that his PC could only auto-detect the doors if he was carrying a light source, since relying on darkvision meant that he'd have disadvantage on sight-based Perception checks, which would negate the advantage from the feat. Another small win on my part.

I find it frustrating with certain builds or gimmicks that players choose or use repeatedly. Some you can just let the player have the win or you can talk to him about 'gamming' the system and making the fights too easy. You could be more aversive and have the bad guys all run away until the spell wears off and then 3 encounters worth of monsters come out to fight. You could have random dispel effects strike from the dungeon saying that repeated use of spells angers Hallaster or such.

I'm trying to be good-natured about it because I like the player. He doesn't normally play such annoyingly effective characters. He just happens to have found a combo that works ridiculously well in this particular adventure.

I do already sometimes have the bad guys withdraw but it doesn't always work. He's got loads of spell slots that he barely uses on anything else, so running out the clock on spirit guardians isn't always an effective tactic.

I could have Halaster randomly drop a dead magic or wild magic zone on the PC. That could be fun, and I have been trying to make the players / PCs more annoyed with Halaster lately.

You could always introduce them to this and disintegrate them or teleport them minus their stuff to the entrance of the dungeon. 1e did have ways of dealing with problems.

That's exactly the sort of thing I don't want to do.

Beholders with minions are excellent enemies for one-trick pony players, and they will have more fun when they have to think outside of the box and problem solve for real. And there are tons of other creatures that can really screw with a party that is overly reliant on tank'n'spank tactics.

Hmm. Yes. Beholders are quite fun, and they are now at a level where they can face off against one (or two). There's even an undead beholder on one of the lower levels of Undermountain. (It even made the cover of the book!)

Also, use the environment to make the fights more interesting. Make it difficult for him to just wade into the battle beside the tanks. It kind of sounds like you (or the pre-published adventure) are throwing similar challenges at them, and they've cracked the code.

I do try, but yeah, I'm somewhat limited by the pre-existing maps of the dungeon. Sometimes the environment isn't all that interesting.

And play the monsters like they are intelligent and good at fighting (assuming they are those things). As DM, it is your job to try to win while playing the enemies as realistically as possible, which generally means trying to use their own tactics once they see what the party is doing.

Believe me, I do! This is actually the second party in this campaign after the first one wiped fighting some drow on level 3.

Just use a bigger map, I'd say.

A lot of these Undermountain maps are a bit too big already (and the 5e ones are generally a fraction of the size of the originals!). LOL.

Give them multiple objectives across a larger area so he can't cover everyone and has to make choices.

Edit: Or yeah, do exactly the thing you said you didn't want to do and punish them with cheapness.

Yeah nah. Multiple objectives are good. I'll do that when I can.

 

[iserith]

Making it so players can't use their go-to tactic without working for it generally requires terrain and monsters plus monster tactics that drive that outcome. Given you're running a module, it might be a little difficult to make those sorts of changes easily.

The tactic of the cleric relies in part on positioning and the ability to move and see the enemy. Therefore, any terrain that slows them down (easy - difficult terrain), does not allow them to easily or cheaply get near allies (narrow places or danger in grouping up), as well as terrain that grapples or restrains thereby preventing Dodge will throw a wrench into their tactics. Invisible monsters also circumvent dodge. Multiattacking ranged monsters can force multiple Concentration checks outside the area of effect of the spirit guardians.

 

[pukunui]

Making it so players can't use their go-to tactic without working for it generally requires terrain and monsters plus monster tactics that drive that outcome. Given you're running a module, it might be a little difficult to make those sorts of changes easily.

Luckily for me, Dungeon of the Mad Mage is dungeon delving at its old school finest with lots of empty rooms and no real plot. I can easily drop in new monsters (or swap out existing ones), and I can use my mad skillz with Photoshop to modify the map as needed.

The tactic of the cleric relies in part on positioning and the ability to move and see the enemy. Therefore, any terrain that slows them down (easy - difficult terrain), does not allow them to easily or cheaply get near allies (narrow places or danger in grouping up), as well as terrain that grapples or restrains thereby preventing Dodge will throw a wrench into their tactics. Invisible monsters also circumvent dodge. Multiattacking ranged monsters can force multiple Concentration checks outside the area of effect of the spirit guardians.

Good advice. Thanks.

Now that we're getting down into the lower levels of the dungeon / higher PC levels, things are starting to get more interesting in terms of terrain and monster variety. (As an aside, I've been pleasantly surprised at how well the PCs' level has stayed in line with the dungeon levels. They're very close to hitting character level 13, and they've just started exploring dungeon level 13.)

Next time they cross paths with their primary rival, Rex the Hammer, he'll have a spirit guardians-toting cleric in tow, too. That's for sure!

 

[Tonguez]

Im not seeing any issue with the player himself, hes found an effective style that helpsvthe team so kudos to him.

As for DM side, more dispell effects, bigger dynamic maps to break up the party, and some entanglement should helpnand does Un/Hallow ground affect spirit guardians?

Beholders with minions sounds cool

 

[pukunui]

Im not seeing any issue with the player himself, hes found an effective style that helpsvthe team so kudos to him.

Yeah, I'm not saying the player has done anything wrong. That's why I don't want to do anything that seems like I'm trying to punish him. It's just that his favored tactic is a) getting annoyingly repetitive and b) making things a little too easy.

As for DM side, more dispell effects, bigger dynamic maps to break up the party, and some entanglement should helpnand does Un/Hallow ground affect spirit guardiands?

Beholders with minions sounds cool