D&D 5E Char Ops forums: Something I wish hadn't come over.

[Fralex]

I remember Rich Burlew had some interesting thoughts on optimization:

Optimizers usually make the flawed assumption that what everybody wants is for their character to be able to steamroll the monsters as quickly and efficiently as possible, when in fact what some people want might be to tell the story of a deeply flawed hero who bumbles their way through every encounter, while what other people might want is to not spend more than ten minutes making their character so they can spend more time sleeping next to their husband. Power is about priorities, and there are no objectively superior priorities in life or D&D.

Actually, that last one sounds kind of fun. How do you create a usable character in the least amount of time possible? What if someone did a game where everyone had to create characters as fast as they could, and then live with those snap decisions for the adventure? I'm thinking it would work best in a really lethal game where characters die and get replaced frequently.

 

[lowkey13]

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[The Yellow Pill]

The real problem isn't any one particular kind of player, but an unwillingness to respect other players' interests.

Again, I disagree. The real problem is one person wants to build a boat and the other person wants to build a statue. Finding a middle ground can only get you so far. Eventually you just have to say "We're not building the same thing here. Let's part ways."

 

[Fralex]

Again, I disagree. The real problem is one person wants to build a boat and the other person wants to build a statue. Finding a middle ground can only get you so far. Eventually you just have to say "We're not building the same thing here. Let's part ways."

Also that. Sometimes the best solution is to just find other people whose interests align better

 

[Saeviomagy]

Imagine there is a group of friends that gets together to play pickup basketball and drink beer. One person crunches the math and realizes that the optimal strategy, each time, is for him to dribble the ball down and take a three point shot. On average, that will result in the most points per play. Always. So he tells his friends, "Every time we get the ball, I will dribble it down and shoot a three point shot." When the friends complain that the game is no longer fun for them, he replies, "Why are you focused on being upset to what I'm doing, and what I am contributing to our team's offense? You can't argue with my math. Don't be upset if I am stealing the limelight by focusing on what I do best- instead, why don't you enjoy getting rebounds, or something?"

Which is a terribly flawed analogy - using the same strategy every single time is unlikely to work in D&D, and is unlikely to work in basketball. Further, it assumes that one activity that has an optimal strategy is the totality of the game (ie combat/playing basketball), totally ignoring the other aspect (the other pillars of D&D, or drinking beer). Finally you're playing out the jerk, not the optimizer: the same scenario, where one player is assuming control of the group, will probably be objectionable even if that player is doing so in order to play more causally, or to drink more beer.

So to adjust your analogy: the group of friends get together to play pickup basketball and drink beer. One person is a better player than her friends, and it becomes obvious to the group as a whole that getting the ball to that person improves their win rate. The other players aren't so focused on the basketball, and are investing less into the game and more into drinking beer. Or they are focused on basketball and they work on improving their own contribution.

If people don't place their own ego above having fun, then there's no problems here, everyone has fun. It's only when people start getting upset about other people's contribution that there is an issue.

 

[hbarsquared]

Perhaps a list of points everyone can agree on?

- Anyone can be a jerk, and anyone that considers their own playstyle to be superior and to be emulated by all others, and/or all other playstyles to be badwrongfun, is a jerk.

- An "Optimizer" can be a jerk as much as an "Actor" can be a jerk. I've even seen jerk Casual Players.

- Different people want different things from the table and from the game. Sometimes there can be compromise. Sometimes not. When not, perhaps it's time to find a different group with common interests.

Are we good, so far? Good.

- "Optimizing" means many things to many people. Some examples, all of which I would call "optimizing," to some degree.

- Breaking the game and creating Pun-pun.
- The level-by-level and feat-by-feat creation of the best grappler.
- One interpretation on the best Indiana Jones.
- How to get the greatest damage out of cloudkill.
- Suggested spell list for the most versatile illusionist.
- What are the advantages/disadvantages of magic missile vs sleep?
- A blind dwarf monk, half-orc paladin, or wizard with rolled abilities no greater than 12 - hiw to make the most effective?
- A "Master Chef" or "Orphan Boy" or "Craftsman/Architect" character concept and finding the mechanics that can best exemplify the concept.

Optimizing can simply mean starting with a Goal, and utilizing the mechanics to best fulfill that goal. Thr goal can be DPR, counterspelling, or action-prevention. The goal may also be a unique character concept, a creative limitation, or a theoretical exercise.

The point is, back to the original point made hy the thread, the CharOp forums are useful and are referenced by a variety of people. Optimization does not ruin the gane, neither will it ruin ENWorld. Many reference those threads, from those trying to choose spells for their first wizard, or feats for their first fighter, or hardcore minmaxers getting the most dpr, or storytellers finding the best expression for their pacifist librarian.

So, yeah, I'm glad those CharOp guides are bring saved and brought to ENWorld. They're entertaining, useful, and informative - for all types of players.

 

[lowkey13]

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[ExploderWizard]

I remember Rich Burlew had some interesting thoughts on optimization:

Actually, that last one sounds kind of fun. How do you create a usable character in the least amount of time possible? What if someone did a game where everyone had to create characters as fast as they could, and then live with those snap decisions for the adventure? I'm thinking it would work best in a really lethal game where characters die and get replaced frequently.

Welcome to old school. 3d6 in order, pick a class, slap on some gear, and get adventuring! Survive as long as you can. Originally, this game was designed with setup for the players being very simple and quick. As long as the DM was prepared, you could get out the D&D game with a table full of fresh new players and be adventuring in 30 minutes or less. That ease of starting to play was huge plus in attracting new players. Spending hours noodling over what is essentially, tweaks for your little car, shoe, or top hat would be baffling to many early players.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Welcome to old school. 3d6 in order, pick a class, slap on some gear, and get adventuring! Survive as long as you can. Originally, this game was designed with setup for the players being very simple and quick. As long as the DM was prepared, you could get out the D&D game with a table full of fresh new players and be adventuring in 30 minutes or less. That ease of starting to play was huge plus in attracting new players. Spending hours noodling over what is essentially, tweaks for your little car, shoe, or top hat would be baffling to many early players.

That is one of my favorite things about 5th edition: steps were taken to allow us players that still want to just toss some dice, make a couple pertinent choices, grab some gear and get to the adventure to do just that.

In fact, if I tell my players to pick the Feature of their background but fill the other details in as they emerge during play, we get a campaign up and running nearly as fast as we can with AD&D or BECM - and if my players would take the quick build info in the book, we'd go even faster.