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Character Creation Stat Draft (Trial Draft Complete!!)

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
RedShirtNo5 said:
Nemm, what are your reasons for considering stat-draft instead of point buy or rolling dice?

-RedShirt

I don't like point buy because I like a little more variety in PCs and I think it penalizes people who want to take a very low stat in something without any chance of something in return.

On the other hand, pure random stat rolling can lead to a VERY wide variation in characters' stats which can be disruptive to a degree (at the same time I have seen plenty of high stat characters die while the "weaker" ones lived).

And lastly, because I think it would be fun to have a communal character creation experience.
 

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RedShirtNo5

First Post
el-remmen said:
And lastly, because I think it would be fun to have a communal character creation experience.
Then you should do it.

Did you consider having the players roll the dice to create the draft? Benefit is player bonding through tension in creating the draft. Drawback is what Hodgie alludes to, i.e., some stats may simply not have good values, limiting availability of some character classes. This could be addressed by letting the players swap one or two pairs of stats after rolling but before order of picking has been set.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
The weakness of any random creation system is that, to some extent, the stats will determine the character concept rather than the other way around. If I want to play a particular character--a charismatic, womanizing fighter, for instance--odds are pretty good that a straight-up random roll like 3d6 six times in order won't be able to support that character. Too low a strength or con and he won't go the distance with Apollo Creed. Too low a charisma and he'll be the ugly thug rather than the underdog contender. The odds of getting the three important stats all in the right range to support the character are not particularly high. With a more generous random method of character generation, the odds of the dice supporting a particular character go up--especially if you can rearrange stats, but since it's still basically random, odds are pretty good that you're going to be deciding between the talented but undisciplined renaissance man who's smarter than average, moderately charismatic, fairly strong and reasonably tough and the weak genius who, like Rasputin, can survive amazing scrapes based upon whether you rolled a 15, a 14, three 13's and a 12 or whether you ended up with an 18, 16, 11, 12, 10, 6.

So, if you prefer concept to preceed creation, a random method of character generation probably isn't going to support that goal.

Point Buy and other choice systems, on the other hand, allow players to develop a concept and choose stats that support the concept... with one big caveat: The concept has to be "balanced" in some way. You can play the really strong but not so bright lug, the renaissance man, the weakling or antisocial genius, etc, but on most point buys you can't play James Bond or Ethan Hunt. The category of concepts that falls under the "really good at everything/unbalanced" category is not supported. If you want to be as strong as Sir Gawaine, you'll have to give up on either being clever or being as charismatic as Sir Galahad.

So, how about the draft idea? I think that is going to combine some of the concept follows stats characteristic of random generation with some of the limited concept support of point buy.

For the first, let's consider these options. I'm sitting down with 4d6 and rolling a stat for six characters:

Str 15, 15, 12, 9, 10, 15
Int 17, 16, 14, 13, 15, 15

Obviously, I rolled pretty well. (Especially that second set--I'll take that character please :) But with the lowest int score as a 13, the player who had walked in thinking "I'll play a dumb barbarian is going to have to adjust his character concept. Similarly, the guy who had planned on making a hulking, he-man fighter is going to be out of luck. He can make a strong fighter, but he won't be the strongest guy out there by any stretch of the imagination--he's more 75th percentile than 99th.

So, with a fairly limited set of options you're going to have the dice and the social dynamic of the draw determining possible character concepts. (And, the two obvious changes to the system--rolling more dice to get more variation and allowing characters to draft the numbers instead of drafting attributes (numbers connected to a specific attribute) won't help. The first will simply skew the results higher. (Let's say that you decided for 8 strength rolls and took my first two int rolls and put them in strength--now you're likely to end up with 17, 16, 15, 15, 15, 12 as your characters' strength scores. The available stats still don't support a low-strength concept; they're just higher than than they would have been otherwise.) The second would simply make it a question of choosing the highest numbers--I mean, everyone would make a better, tougher character with higher numbers rather than lower ones, right? And it's not like the higher numbers will be around on the second draft pick if you forgoe them in the first round).

The second point is that, like point buy, the draft system is likely to favor the creation of certain kinds of characters. In point buy, James Bond is impossible. The characters that are encouraged either strongly favor a couple stats (the 20, 10, 16, 6, 8, 6 half-orc barbarian) or are moderately good at a lot of things (a 14, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10 fighter/mage for instance). In the draft system you're proposing (as I understand it), everyone has a big incentive to grab the highest roll available to them and create a character based off of it. So, if the five highest rolls on the table are 17 int, 18 wis, 17 cha, 16 int, and 18 dex, odds are good that they will be the first five choices and the players will then pick from the 16 dex, 15 str, 15 str, 15 str, and 14 con that are on the table. After three choices or so, players may be less picky (after all, it does you no good to pick the 16 Int if you already have the 17 Int). And there is probably an incentive to depart from that paradigm in the case of Constitution (It's everyone's secondary stat. If there's a 15, 10, 7, 13, 8, and 14 Con on the table, I'd be tempted to give up the possibility of a 17 or 18 on my primary stat in order to make sure I didn't end up with the 7 Con). But, on the whole, I would expect characters chosen with the stat draft method to look something like [Really high score] [fairly high score] [three middling scores] [one lousy score]. In general, I'd expect characters to have one or two really high scores and the rest above average to poor.

So, I guess it comes down to these questions:
1. Do you want the dice to dictate character concepts?
2. Do you like the kind of character that a system is going to encourage? (No system invariably creates one kind of character--I've seen 15, 13, 12, 10, 11, 14 characters come out of 28 point buy just like I've seen 18, 10, 16, 8, 8, 8 characters and 14, 14, 14, 10, 10, 14, and 14, 10, 14, 10, 15, 12 characters come out of it, but you rightly observe that it encourages certain tendencies).
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
RedShirtNo5 said:
Then you should do it.

Did you consider having the players roll the dice to create the draft? Benefit is player bonding through tension in creating the draft. Drawback is what Hodgie alludes to, i.e., some stats may simply not have good values, limiting availability of some character classes. This could be addressed by letting the players swap one or two pairs of stats after rolling but before order of picking has been set.

That is how I originally planned to do it, but then realized I should do it myself to tweak the stats as needed before the players see them.

Perhaps a compromise is have each player roll seven stats, one attached to each attribute and one "wild" that if chosen can be put in any slot (but would not neccessarily be high).
 

Thanee

First Post
el-remmen said:
In the next round, the person that picked second picks first and then all the way through.

In the third round, the person that went 3rd in the first round goes first, etc. . .

I would probably swap around the order completely each round.

i.e. with 4 players...

R1) 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
R2) 4th 3rd 2nd 1st
R3) 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
R4) 4th 3rd 2nd 1st
R5) 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
R6) 4th 3rd 2nd 1st

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee

First Post
Rolled up some example stats:

STR 12 09 13 14
DEX 10 16 13 11
CON 12 11 14 13
INT 08 13 10 08
WIS 18 07 16 13
CHA 11 15 14 18

ONE decides to play a Cleric, TWO does not want to play a spellcaster and decides to play a Rogue, THREE decides on a Druid and FOUR then goes for a Sorcerer. Using the draft order I posted above.

ONE Wis 18 TWO Dex 16 THREE Wis 16 FOUR Cha 18
FOUR Con 14 THREE Int 13 TWO Int 10 ONE Str 14
ONE Con 13 TWO Str 13 THREE Con 12 FOUR Dex 13
FOUR Wis 13 THREE Cha 15 TWO Cha 14 ONE Dex 11
ONE Cha 11 TWO Con 11 THREE Str 12 FOUR Str 09
FOUR Int 08 THREE Dex 10 TWO Wis 07 ONE Int 08

The final abilities in order:

STR 14 13 12 09
DEX 11 16 10 13
CON 13 11 12 14
INT 08 10 13 08
WIS 18 07 16 13
CHA 11 14 15 18

T-M +6 +4 +8 +6
P-B 33 25 33 33

The Rogue looks a little weak, but TWO didn't want to play a spellcaster. ;)


Another try with the draft order based on highest ability picked last round.

ONE Wis 18 TWO Dex 16 THREE Wis 16 FOUR Cha 18
THREE Int 13 TWO Con 14 FOUR Con 13 ONE Str 14
FOUR Dex 13 THREE Cha 15 ONE Cha 14 TWO Int 10
TWO Wis 13 FOUR Str 13 ONE Con 12 THREE Str 12
THREE Dex 11 ONE Dex 10 FOUR Int 08 TWO Str 09
FOUR Wis 07 TWO Cha 11 ONE Int 08 THREE Con 10

STR 14 09 12 13
DEX 10 16 11 13
CON 12 14 11 13
INT 08 10 13 08
WIS 18 13 16 07
CHA 14 11 15 18

T-M +8 +5 +7 +4
P-B 34 27 33 30

This probably works a little better. :)

Bye
Thanee
 
Last edited:

RedShirtNo5

First Post
el-remmen said:
Perhaps a compromise is have each player roll seven stats, one attached to each attribute and one "wild" that if chosen can be put in any slot (but would not neccessarily be high).
Hmm. My intuition is that, unless the rolled stat distribution was pretty strange, the result of this would be that no character would have a stat below 9.

There's something to be said for the old-school feel of having the stats determine the character. In the card draw system, I had players considering class combinations and character concepts that they would not normally select. Also, since the stat generation was restricive, I was more permissive in what books could be used - I let players use base classes from the Complete series and Expanded Psionics (usually I would limit classes to the core books).
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, I am not overly concerned with stats determining character - stretch thos creative muscles.

I still am curious to run a mock draft here on the boards just to see how it works out. Thanee's examples were cool, but formated confusingly.
 

Thanee

First Post
Sorry! :)

The first block is just rolled in order (top to bottom, left to right).

The 6-line blocks (ONE Wis 18 TWO Dex 16 ...) are the six rounds of the draft with the order in each round from left to right.

The blocks after those are the results, where the four columns stand for the four players (ONE, TWO, etc).

Bye
Thanee
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
el-remmen said:
I still am curious to run a mock draft here on the boards just to see how it works out. Thanee's examples were cool, but formated confusingly.

I'll be happy to help with this, if you need it.
 

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