Character Death

[Grogg of the North]

[MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] I think the issue comes from the fact that the PC and his family come from an aquatic, and if I understand correctly, underwater culture. From a story/world perspective a water elemental might have fit better but the air was chosen because of the bonuses it has.

 

[Dandu]

To be fair, theres plenty of wind on the high seas.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Now I'm picturing wizards binding air elementals to sail boats to ensure they've always got the wind at their backs. I wonder if lanteen sails would have even been invented in a high magic world. Oh ... and there I go, over thinking it again....

 

[Greenfield]

And if Small Air Elemental came with Gust of Wind or Control Winds, that would work.

At the same time a Water Elemental could also be an aid to a ship by providing a current that always goes where the ship is heading.

As far as the player is concerned: I hate booting people from the game. Hard feelings always follow. That's why, in a way, I'm glad it isn't up to me. Not my responsibility.

In fairness, the DM dictated when his character spotted our group, so the decision to approach at night wasn't fully his fault. He could have waited until morning, when he had a chance to observe from a distance and decide how to approach us, but that wasn't the scene the DM laid out, so...

Using Darkness as a way to see in the dark is one of the cute paradoxes in D&D and I can't blame him for taking advantage. I think he was an idiot for not thinking of the setting, and the over all first impression he was making, but the fact is I can't really blame him for that either.

I know that last part sounds funny, but the fact is he isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. I call him the "problem child" not because of his age (he served in Desert Storm, the 1st gulf war), but because he acts like a child. He can't help it. If he was a bright person who chose to act like an idiot I could be mad, but the fact is he can't help it. He thinks of himself, short sightedly so, and others second if at all.

I'm ticked at him over the blatant treasure grab. He stacked us hip deep in loot, so his character could gear up. While we were discussing the overload, he put in that we could/should bump the treasure value by recharging some of the magic staves we'd found, to increase their resale value. (I had to explain the math of crafting/recharging magic items to him, and how you never make any money at that.) Everyone in the party, except him, kept the bulk of the treasure overload in cash, rather than powering up by buying magical gear. He bought as much stuff as he could afford, to be as overpowered as he could be.

And yes, I did take a dark delight in his character dying and losing all of his ill-manipulated Monty-Haul.

I took an equally dark delight in observing that, because of his wealth/power grab backfiring he was also going to stay on the lean side (meaning in balance, wealth wise) for a while. Normally lower level character will tend to over-gear, since their fair share of treasure is the same as someone two levels higher, so their wealth will grow disproportionate to their level. His won't.

As for the "lie" about being the old character's brother: He chose the last character's race because of a racial ability: Add 1 to caster Level for spells with a Water descriptor. He then asked for, and was granted, a variation on a Feat from Frostburn. The original allowed a caster to add the Cold descriptor to any spell. You had to add ice to the material components. His variant allowed him to add the Water descriptor to any spell by adding water to the components.

The new character is Human with an aquatic template, rather than actually being Aventi. He still gets the extra Feat and Skills for being Human, which the Aventi don't get.

In both cases he optimized for advantage, but it's a choice we all make with every character, so i can't fault him for that. He probably didn't think that the race difference would mean that he can't actually be the brother to the last character. Again, short-sighted/stupid more than an intentional lie.

He's planning on taking a Prestige Class that allows elemental specialization, and wants to go with air. Odd choice for an aquatic, but it goes with his choice in Elemental familiar.

But he hasn't taken that step yet. No Prestige Class, no Elemental specialty, so the Improved Familiar choice was premature.

He could have taken the PRC, but wanted to start off with two levels of Rogue. His goal with every character is to somehow end up with Freedom of Action, Evasion, Mettle, an AC 10 points higher than anyone else in the party, Save bonuses high enough to make him immune to pretty much all spell damage, and ideally some way of re-rolling the inevitable "1" that must eventually come up.

That's not an overinflated concoction of power gaming traits, it's pretty much what he's said and demonstrated.

When his choices made no sense for a character, and we asked how he justified them, he'd just give a big shrug and a stupid grin. He didn't care that they were impossible, story wise, or unjustifiable by the rules, he was just happy to have whatever power or advantage he thought he was going to get.

I'm unreasonably certain that his new character wouldn't pass an audit. He'll have treated all the Rogue skill list as "In Class" for his Sorcerer levels, and so far he seems to have at least five of the four Feats a character of his race, class(es) and level are entitled to. He'll have items from sources that we don't use. (He loves Magic Item Compendium, despite being told over and over again that it's not an approved source.)

Unlike his race/familiar/treasure issues, or the Deity/Domain problems of his last one, these can't be written of to being not-too-bright. He's pulled all of these before, been called on them, and tried them again at first opportunity.

So yeah, I'm hard on him. Yes, I'm looking for reasons to "pounce". And he always provides them, blatantly, stupidly, and in abundance.

 

[N'raac]

CAVEAT I started writing this, got distracted and returned. Greenfield posted his next post between, so I'm amending to cover that as well, but will likely miss something.

I think the perception is that the player is choosing an air elemental rather than a water elemental because he sees some power advantage in doing so. I’m not sure I see the advantage, nor am I seeing the air elemental as inappropriate by default.

I also think most characters have an element of selection of abilities for character power. I doubt any of the players have an 8 STR fighter or a caster with a casting stat of 12. I doubt any selected levels in Warrior or Commoner to better portray the story of their rise to greatness from the humblest of roots. Greenfield acknowledges this as well in his latest post.

To get a bit closer to this issue, I cannot ever recall seeing a Raven selected as a familiar. Who cares about Appraise? Owls, hawks and bats can fly and their bonuses go to more commonly used skills. It doesn’t mean the players of most wizards selecting a familiar other than a raven are unrepentant min-maxers.

At the end of the day, unless the other player gets to dictate how I build my character, I don’t see where I have the right to dictate how he builds his. We may choose different measures of character optimization. Perhaps we have different visions on the story appropriateness of this choice of familiar. Perhaps we have different stories we want our characters to tell!

From older threads, Problem Child has presented ample evidence of power gamer tendencies. Enough that every choice he makes now seems assumed to be for power gaming. I’m just asking if, perhaps, the view is now so coloured that there is no way the player can ever be perceived as making a reasonable character choice.

What I do find disconcerting is the lack of a detailed character review. No matter how charitably one interprets the history, this fellow has consistently demonstrated his grasp of the rules (RAW and House) falls well short of providing confidence his character is accurately constructed. With that in mind, a full detailed review is, in my view, somewhere between "appropriate" and "essential". This will let any issues be ID'd before the character is well into play so he can fix, or change, any elements that are problematic. Practically, a review on each level up also seems appropriate. Whether that applies for everyone in the group, or only those whose past issues show it is needed, his characters clearly need ongoing review.

Does it really matter if he gets the Air Elemental as a precursor to the PrC or vice versa? It would not matter to me. Practically, sitting down and helping him with a backstory that covers off why he sees the other character as a sister, and what motivates an aquatic character to an air motif seems like a worthwhile endeavour, especially with no one seeming to want to boot him. Or challenge him - if he writes the backstory, and the DM's agree it's reasonable (majority rule; maybe unanimous with Greenfield sitting out), then his relationship to his "sister" is accepted as a reason to bequeathe her property to him.

If he's a bit more powerful than the other PC's, but it gets him more in tune with the story focus the other players want, maybe that's not a bad tradeoff. No one's getting a lot of loot near term anyway, as I understand it, so the "overpowered" gear will be grown into anyway - and I suspect his former character's gear won't be perfectly suited to the new character anyway.

Ultimately, though, I think the issues have to get aired - no one will win by letting them fester. That doesn't have to mean an expulsion vote, but I think the issues have to be maturely discussed if any satisfactory resolution is to be reached. Without it, you will just keep getting more frustrated.

 

[Dandu]

To get a bit closer to this issue, I cannot ever recall seeing a Raven selected as a familiar. Who cares about Appraise? Owls, hawks and bats can fly and their bonuses go to more commonly used skills. It doesn’t mean the players of most wizards selecting a familiar other than a raven are unrepentant min-maxers.

Actually, a lot of powergamers like Raven because it is the only familiar that can speak, which is worth a lot in terms of communication and skills such as Knowledge and UMD.

 

[delericho]

As far as the player is concerned: I hate booting people from the game.

It is hard. But if his antics are making the game worse for everyone, you may start to find you have good players leave rather than deal with this one bad player. It's honestly better to bite the bullet, get rid of the one bad player, and play on with the remaining good players.

I'm unreasonably certain that his new character wouldn't pass an audit.

If he has a habit of (intentionally or otherwise) bringing in illegal characters, why isn't the audit being done as a matter of course? Especially since his stated goal is the eventually build a character that will break the game?

 

[N'raac]

Actually, a lot of powergamers like Raven because it is the only familiar that can speak, which is worth a lot in terms of communication and skills such as Knowledge and UMD.

Then we should just ban ravens, right? Either way, a choice is being made for "the abilities I think my character will benefit from".

 

[N'raac]

If he has a habit of (intentionally or otherwise) bringing in illegal characters, why isn't the audit being done as a matter of course?

100% agreed - this doesn't have to be phrased as "you cheat so your character gets a detailed audit". It's as simple as "we all remember past errors causing problems when discovered some time into play - let's do a review up front to ensure any issues are addressed before the character enters play". In my games, this is the rule for all characters, but it should at least be the standard for players who have demonstrated their rules knowledge is lacking from prior characters.

It is hard. But if his antics are making the game worse for everyone, you may start to find you have good players leave rather than deal with this one bad player. It's honestly better to bite the bullet, get rid of the one bad player, and play on with the remaining good players.

I suspect the bigger fear is calling a vote that fails. My sense is that there is already some amount of animosity between Greenfield and this player, but imagine how it will be sitting at the same table after the vote? It won't be a lot better for anyone else voting "get out", which may also influence their voting decision.

That's one reason my preference would be a request for an open and frank discussion of the expectations not shared which are making the game less fun for some, if not all, at the table, rather than calling a vote on expulsion.

 

[cmad1977]

What's sad/funny in this case is that the PC had a way to return, with no level loss, and the player decided not to.

There's a Druidic spell called Last Breath that does a Reincarnate with no level loss. It has to be applied the round after the character died, and we were there that fast.

But the old PC was an optimized tweak based on some racial abilities of an aquatic humanoid race from Stormwrack, and that race wasn't on the Reincarnate table. If she couldn't come back tweaked to the max then the player didn't want her to come back at all.

Now, because the character chose not to return, our characters have no reason to seek out a Raise or Res' for her.

( So tempted to make a "Whine and Cheese" joke here. )

What will prove even more frustrating for the power gamer is that, because he buried us in loot during his (not short enough) tenure as DM, the following DMs are unlikely to give out much loot. We're over-geared as it is.

So his effort to over gear his own PC while DMing now means that his character will not only be undergeared compared to the rest of the party, but will end up being undergeared by level as he advances.

Haha!! 'Death to power gamers!!'

In game. 'In game death to power gamers!!'