Character Sheet updated and released

[Syrsuro]

Just a plug for what I would like to see in a character sheet (although based on every single character sheet made since 3.0 I feel I must be a minority): Give me a character sheet with the information I need to play and without that math behind that information.

Rather than a character sheet that shows AC = 10 + armor + ability + etc + etc, a character sheet that shows my AC. Period.
Rather than a character sheet that shows my initiative modifier = ability + feat, a character sheet that shows my initiative modifier.
Rather than a character sheet that shows the math behind my attacks, a character sheet that shows my attacks.
Rather than a character sheet that shows all of my various skill modifiers, a character sheet that shows my final skill modfier.

Sure, all that math is nice to have available when you need it, but when you need it is generally not at the gaming table. (And this is even more true in 4E since ability score attacks are out the window). And having that information on the character sheet makes it harder to find out what I do need to know at the table.

Request: One more page - call it page 0 or page 4, which has stripped down versions of the same information you show on your page 1, but without the math behind that information (perhaps with some additional useful information added, such as equipment, if space allows). One that shows clearly what I need at the table and leaves the rest for a reference page if I need to see how I arrived at those numbers.

Or maybe the desire to quickly see my character's abilities without wading through rows of (at the time) irrelevant modifiers is something I alone want.

Carl

 

[Pfhoenix]

I understand what you're asking, but I'm failing to see the benefit. In order to use any collection of information, you have to understand what you're looking at and how it's organized. Learning the basic character sheet isn't that hard, as no "final" values are hidden in any way (you do the calculation once and write it down to avoid doing it again needlessly). Are you suggesting that learning a second order of information, devoid of any clues as to how that information came about, is beneficial in some way? If you want to know your AC, what's wrong with looking at the left-most box directly under the text "AC"? Is this more a statement on the usability of the official character sheet?

 

[Syrsuro]

What you gain is speed and expediency. The information you need is there and the information you don't need is not there. To say "You can learn to get used to it and find what you want" is not really a defense.

Let me turn this around: What do you gain by having the derivation of your AC, Initiative, etc. on the front page of your character sheet? (Note: I am not saying that a character creation/calculation page is not useful, only that its place isn't, imho, the front page of the character sheet). In what way is that information useful to you during the game?

Carl

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Pfhoenix,

is there any list of either automated items or those items which are not (yet) automated?

I really like your generator, but I think it's easy to miss something without checking each and every detail of the resultant sheet.

 

[Pfhoenix]

What you gain is speed and expediency. The information you need is there and the information you don't need is not there. To say "You can learn to get used to it and find what you want" is not really a defense.

Let me turn this around: What do you gain by having the derivation of your AC, Initiative, etc. on the front page of your character sheet? (Note: I am not saying that a character creation/calculation page is not useful, only that its place isn't, imho, the front page of the character sheet). In what way is that information useful to you during the game?

I gain the following :
1) keeping with the format of the official character sheet layout
2) ready verifiability of the value should I question it
3) the lack of need to duplicate effort when the values are already presented in a format I'm familiar with

 

[Pfhoenix]

Pfhoenix,

is there any list of either automated items or those items which are not (yet) automated?

I really like your generator, but I think it's easy to miss something without checking each and every detail of the resultant sheet.

Such a list wouldn't be very productive. I've had suggestions of a "build a character checklist" type thing, and it's on my idea list for a future version.

 

[Syrsuro]

I gain the following :

1) keeping with the format of the official character sheet layout == It's the way I've always done it they're doing it now.
2) ready verifiability of the value should I question it == Available on a deeper page if you need it. (Do you often find yourself having to verify your numbers during the game? If so, then the theory behind a precalculated sheet is flawed in the first place. Calculations should be verified once (before play) and then trusted during play. And thus need not be 'on top' during play.)
3) the lack of need to duplicate effort when the values are already presented in a format I'm familiar with == It's the way I've always done it.


Clearly your assumptions are unassailable, although (imho) flawed.

So be it.

Some people look at systems and ask whether they are truely the best approach to satisfy their needs, and some are satisfied to keep doing things the way they have always been done.

(Just out of curiosity, what edition did you first play under? And, yes, it is relevant.)

Carl

 

[Pfhoenix]

1) Not just the way they do it now, but the way that the majority of the people are familiar+comfortable with
2) mixed with #1, but add that the program presents other information as well (see power descriptions for example) on demand in current format without the need of yet another page to flip to
3) My time is severely limited, and it must be prioritized for the maximum return of invested effort. Duplicating effort, a lot of effort I might add, on something that has been brought to my attention only once out of countless other usability reports doesn't immediately warrant high on the priority list. Should others also request such a feature, more weight will be given to the idea.

Don't be so quick to try to pidgeon-hole me; you'll find yourself very mistaken in doing so.

I started playing AD&D, got fairly familiar with 2E, played a small bit of 3E, played a lot of 3.5E, and really enjoy 4E a lot. Throw in Rifts and all sorts of other games (both p&p as well as computer-based). Change doesn't scare me - change for the sake of change is pointless, and misguided change is worse than the status quo. That is, of course, unless you were trying to claim my lack of experience (if I had a lack) was relevant to my unwillingness to see beyond the current format.

You must understand - one of the highest design decisions for Character Sheet was keeping with the official character sheet layout in order to maintain a format that most people would be familiar and comfortable with. Any deviation from that must be justified by both quantity of user feedback and effort to accommodate those users. One person calling me short-sighted and calling my decisions "assumptions" fulfills neither.

 

[Syrsuro]

1)
Don't be so quick to try to pidgeon-hole me; you'll find yourself very mistaken in doing so.

I started playing AD&D, got fairly familiar with 2E, played a small bit of 3E, played a lot of 3.5E, and really enjoy 4E a lot. Throw in Rifts and all sorts of other games (both p&p as well as computer-based). Change doesn't scare me - change for the sake of change is pointless, and misguided change is worse than the status quo. That is, of course, unless you were trying to claim my lack of experience (if I had a lack) was relevant to my unwillingness to see beyond the current format.

You must understand - one of the highest design decisions for Character Sheet was keeping with the official character sheet layout in order to maintain a format that most people would be familiar and comfortable with. Any deviation from that must be justified by both quantity of user feedback and effort to accommodate those users. One person calling me short-sighted and calling my decisions "assumptions" fulfills neither.

I asked when you started because the modern calculation-crammed character sheet is an artifact of the 3.x edition. Earlier editions did not have this (largely because the system did not need them).

Thus I find that at least some of those whose 'formative years' of gaming were predominantly under 1E or earlier are less interested in these cluttered sheets, while those for whom 3.x represents the majority of their gaming experience consider them the norm. In my own case, I admire elegance of function and see no reason to clutter the front page of my character sheet with information I simply will not need during play (while appreciating the convenience of a character creation sheet where I can enter my numbers and make my choices, and have my values calculated for me). You, on the other hand, apparently do not share the same esthetic and instead see a value in having the underlying calculations constantly in front of you.


And your decisions are not assumptions - and I never claimed that they were. (And I likewise did not call you short-sighted). But they are, as are all decisions, based upon assumptions. No slight was intended - I respect your opinion (and your work) while at the same time believing that there is a flaw in your underlying assumptions (specifically with the predominant assumption that "consistancy for its own sake is a desirable goal"). You could, on the other hand, claim that my assumption that "consistancy for its own sake has little or no value" is equally flawed.

I appreciate that your time is limited, and it is your project to do with as you wish. So I will drop this with one final thought: Which is ultimately more of a wasted effort? To repeat the efforts of eveyone else working in the same field, using the same approach and creating a sheet that is ultimately not that different than anyone else's (albeit doing it slightly better than are many others), or to look for new and innovative ways to approach the problem. Ways that are not the same as those everyone else are using and thus offer a truely different product, rather than an incremental improvement over the dozen or so other character sheets that are out there. (Especially when the suggestion of adding a fourth page that simply reflects the information from the 'calculation page' still allows those who do want the cluttered sheet to have it their way as well. In effect, allowing me to have my cake and them to eat it.)

Regardless, good luck with your continued project. For my part, I will stick to those designed around a spreadsheet - not because they are superior to your product, but because I can bend them to my will and end up with a sheet that does what I want.

(edit) Aside: When I went to GenCon this year my character sheet measured 5" x 8" (printed on cardstock using Excel) and, although it was a tight fit, contained all of the information I needed for play, including my equipment and attacks. On the other hand, although this was sufficient for 1st and 2nd level, I will clearly have to go with a larger sheet for the higher levels. And, of course, fitting it onto that small a space required custom adjusting field sizes and thus would not work for a generic project.

Another ongoing project of mine is to create a character sheet based upon Pocketmod. But that has its own difficulties.


Carl

 

[Pfhoenix]

Version 0.7.9 has been released! See original post for details.