Charge attacks and Tripping

[jlhorner1974]

I'm sure this has been asked a billion times, but I can't search the forums, soo...

1) Person A readies a trip attack.
2) Person B charges Person A.
3) Since Person A readied, his trip attack is resolved first. Suppose Person A makes the trip attack and succeeds, knocking Person B prone.

I've read the rules on Trip attacks and Charge attacks, and they don't explicitly state anything about this.

Since Person B has been knocked prone, he cannot get up this round (a Move action) unless he has some feat allowing him to do so -- therefore, Person B remains prone, right?

Since the rules do not say that Person B loses his attack, Person B can still attempt his attack, at the normal -4 penalty for being prone. Again, the rules do not state that falling prone negates a charge, so by a very literal interpretation, the result appears to be that Person B is allowed an attack at -2 (+2 for charging, -4 for being prone), and keeps his -2 penalty to AC, right?

Somehow though, this result does not seem right to me. It makes more sense to me that Person B should lose his "charging" status because his momentum is gone -- that is, he would lose his +2 bonus for charging and lose his -2 penalty to AC.

Are any official rulings on this??

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Hm.

I'm assuming Person A doesn't have a reach weapon.

Think of it this way. Someone is running towards you at full speed, and he trips 5' from you. In what direction do you think he's going to fall? Probably the same direction he was going in while charging. Why couldn't he try to hit you as he's falling down?

If Person A has a reach weapon, then Person B never reaches an adjacent square (unless he has a reach weapon too) and can't attack Person A.

IMO.

AR

 

[Davek]

If you trip them could that not be interpreted as a change in direction, so then the charge would no longer be in effect.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Think of it this way. Someone is running towards you at full speed, and he trips 5' from you. In what direction do you think he's going to fall? Probably the same direction he was going in while charging. Why couldn't he try to hit you as he's falling down?

In real life, I agree with you completely. B would go flying in A's direction as he was tripped (probably sailing through the air and going a few more feet before stopping), but that's not what happens in the game -- when tripped, B falls prone 5' in front of A (as soon as B enters A's threat range). In real life, Person B could try to attack as he is falling down, but I don't think that is what happens in the game.

According to the rules for readied actions, I think Person A's trip attack has to be completely resolved before Person B gets to attack. If Person A's trip succeeds, I think this means that the results of the trip have to be applied before B can retaliate, so therefore Person B is forced to attack from prone. If you have a different interpretation of the rules, I am interested in hearing it.

Good point about the reach weapons. If Person A has a reach weapon and B does not, B is knocked prone and never gets his attack, because he never gets in range.

 

[jlhorner1974]

If you trip them could that not be interpreted as a change in direction, so then the charge would no longer be in effect.

I think it could be intrepreted that way, yes. Of course, a class ability or feat that allows you to change direction during a charge would complicate this interpretation. I know I have seen at least a couple of these.

I see it as the +2 to hit comes from the momentum of the charge, and if the attacker is tripped by a readied trip from the defender, then the momentum is lost, and so the attacker is no longer charging.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

The readied action is resolved before the action that triggers it, but, in this case, the readied action is triggered when Person B is within melee range of Person A, that's why I say that Person B should not be denied his attack, IMO.

If Person A doesn't want to get hit by Person B, he should ready a move out of the way... :\

AR

 

[jlhorner1974]

The readied action is resolved before the action that triggers it, but, in this case, the readied action is triggered when Person B is within melee range of Person A, that's why I say that Person B should not be denied his attack, IMO.

If Person A doesn't want to get hit by Person B, he should ready a move out of the way... :\

AR

I wasn't saying Person B doesn't get his attack -- I agree with you that he does (otherwise, charging would really suck). I just think that he is prone when he finally gets to make it (so he is forced to stab up from the floor, swipe at A's feet, ... something like that), cos he has already been tripped.

You can still attack if you are prone, it's just at -4 penalty.

 

[jlhorner1974]

{Double post}

 

[IceBear]

I'd give him his charge attack - I'll rationalize it as him making the attack as he's falling so he still has some of that momentum. Of course, your idea of killing the charge is fine too.

 

[jlhorner1974]

I'd give him his charge attack - I'll rationalize it as him making the attack as he's falling so he still has some of that momentum. Of course, your idea of killing the charge is fine too.

That's the real crux of the issue, isn't it? It seems everyone agrees that the charging attacker still gets his attack, but there are several interpretations on what condition the attacker is in (prone or not, still charging or not) when he finally gets to resolve his original charge attack.

I thank you and AR for your opinions, and I think they both make sense. Without an official ruling, I suppose it is up to the DM's interpretation.

I can't believe nobody has asked this before.