Christian Magic

[tetsujin28]

As a moderator, I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone who has kept this thread focused, interesting and on topic. I'm really pleased.

You're welcome It's a fascinating subject.

 

[tarchon]

The ancient beliefs of the Mongols (and the entirety of Central Asia) is pretty much impossible to reconstruct.

The Secret History (Yuan Ch'ao Pi Shi) is reasonably informative in that respect, though it is an incomplete picture. The impression it gives is that there wasn't much in the way of a distinct religious life, but that interactions with spirits were thought to be relatively important in daily experience. Mönke Tengri, the Eternal Sky, the Eternal Heavens, is particularly prominent, and the Genghisids clearly thought of that power as being their patron (it's an open question whether that's Chinese influence or the Chinese notion of Heaven as the patron of the ruler came from Central Asia). For examples of shamans, you don't have to look much farther than Teb Tengri.

 

[ecliptic]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this.

Ritual Enochian magic would be the way to go.

 

[tetsujin28]

For examples of shamans, you don't have to look much farther than Teb Tengri.

Again, though, we have no proof. The extensive material and belief culture surrounding shamanism doesn't show up until the the 18th century. Saying they were 'pagan' is fine. Saying they were 'shamans' is not. All we can really say about Teb Tengri is that he was a magico-religious practitioner. The fact that until the early boom in Russian research on Mongolian and Tungusic beliefs, Teb Tengri was not referred to as a shaman ('priest' is the more usual word), is telling.

 

[tarchon]

Again, though, we have no proof. The extensive material and belief culture surrounding shamanism doesn't show up until the the 18th century. Saying they were 'pagan' is fine. Saying they were 'shamans' is not. All we can really say about Teb Tengri is that he was a magico-religious practitioner. The fact that until the early boom in Russian research on Mongolian and Tungusic beliefs, Teb Tengri was not referred to as a shaman ('priest' is the more usual word), is telling.

Well, everything I've ever read about Mongolian culture unreservedly refers to the traditional boo as a shaman, very distinctly from Lamaist-Buddhist clergy. Thus I'm assuming you're using some definition different from that used by most people who write about Mongolian culture. In such case, not being familiar with the wealth of redefinitions of common terms proposed in anthropology books, I can't really argue about it either way.
Obviously the Mongols didn't refer to Teb Tengri as a "priest" or "shaman" literally, neither being Mongolian words. Was it the Classical antecedent of boo? Obviously it couldn't have been lam, since that's a later Tibetan borrowing. I have a copy of the Mongolian text, but I can't get to it until I get home tonight.

 

[Torm]

Doesn't much matter - the Great Khan was either very metropolitan in his views on religion, or just flat didn't care, but either way, Teb-Tengri met his end when his interference outweighed his usefulness, and the areas that were brought under into the Khan's empire were allowed to maintain their beliefs, and even their means of local governing, intact, for the most part.

P.S. Did you know that there are tales, admittedly mostly refuted by historians, that imply that Genghis's grandson, Mongka, was brought to be the third Great Khan because of manuevering by Nestorian Christians done in an attempt to sabotage the empire's Western expansion?

 

[Agback]

Well you probably already have thought of this, while a good deal of Europe was in the process of being converted to Christianity, most of the less well educated people kept up with a portion of the previous beliefs as well.

Not just the less-educated. Nearly all of mediaeval medicine was an application of the magical beliefs of the Greeks and Romans. In fact, reading about the history of medicine it strikes me that the fantasy stereotype of the wizard (tomes, speaking words of power, weird ingredients, astrology, geometric diagrams, robes embroidered with astrological symbols and Arabic script) might well be based on the mediaeval doctor. And doctors were trained at universities.

 

[Tonguez]

Not just the less-educated. Nearly all of mediaeval medicine was an application of the magical beliefs of the Greeks and Romans. In fact, reading about the history of medicine it strikes me that the fantasy stereotype of the wizard (tomes, speaking words of power, weird ingredients, astrology, geometric diagrams, robes embroidered with astrological symbols and Arabic script) might well be based on the mediaeval doctor. And doctors were trained at universities.

Yes and the irony is that those Universities were usually theological and their Doctors usually Clerics!.

As such St Tomas Aquinas the patron saint of Universities and was a Dominican monk, Franscican Friar Roger Bacon who was a student of Oxford University was accused of Witchcraft. The Arcane/Divine split of DnD is a very modern one and historically most of those we would consider Wizards were in fact of a religious bent (Merlin was probably a Druid, Gandalf is celestial, and the very word Mage (from Magi) refers Zoroastrian clergy)

tetsujin28
Yes I agree with you about the use of the word Shamanism. I was going to use the word animism instead since its broader in meaning but decided that for the purposes of DnD Shamanism was sufficient. Indeed the big problem with any translation of culturally specific terms (like boo) is that the translation (shaman, priest, doctor, Holy Man) never really fit

 

[Tonguez]

Also Agback it ought to be noted that practically all the medical knowledge and greek philosophy (Aristotle in particular) taught in the Medieval universities came from translations of Muslim texts (the writings of Ibn Sina being particularily popular)

 

[Agback]

And actually, alot of scientists now think that the 'witch craze' thing was due to naturally occuring hallucinogenics found in spoiled bread.

Particularly, bread made out of grain that had been infected with ergot. I'm not convinced, though the effects of ergotism are interesting, and may be involved in various episodes of religious hysteria. Ergotamine is a powerful psychoactive toxin, and ergotism has some very peculiar symptoms. Ergot in the rye is most fit for masquerading as an outbreak of demonic activity or the like.