Christian Magic

[Agback]

Also Agback it ought to be noted that practically all the medical knowledge and greek philosophy (Aristotle in particular) taught in the Medieval universities came from translations of Muslim texts (the writings of Ibn Sina being particularily popular)

Indeed: the study of Greek originals in the West did not resume until the second quarter of the 13th Century, when Robert Grosseteste was chancellor of Oxford. It is possible that Greek texted looted from Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade were crucial.

But Islam is hardly an example of a previous belief.

 

[mythusmage]

Can't find the post I got this information from, but one fellow noted that one Mongol leader was supported by the Nestorian Christians in order to bollix any Mongol conquest of Europe. Not a likely scenario.

You can find an informative article on Nestorianism here. It also has leads to other early Christian heresies. A study of the religion will show that from the start its relations with the Roman Catholic Church was a rocky one. In its various incarnations across Asia it followed a doctrine very much at odds with orthodox Christianity, as a result both sides found reason to hate each other.

So, if a Nestorian cabal got together to make a particular grandson of Temujin, the Genghis Khan supreme leader, it was probably with the hope he'd be the one to conquer Europe and help them gain their revenge on their long time enemies.

We know return you to your regular thread.

 

[tarchon]

I have a copy of the Mongolian text, but I can't get to it until I get home tonight.

The original text seems not to refer to Teb Tengri as anything but the middle son of Mönglik (out of seven). "Teb Tengri" is given as an epithet to his given name, so it was obviously some kind of reference to his connection to Mönke Tengri, to whom TT himself claimed a speaking relationship. It's probably no coincidence that his father's name was Mönglik either - I think -l*k is an Altaic substantive suffix, so it might mean something like "Eternity." The tale of his execution also has a very shamanic flavor to it, with the Secret History uncharacteristically taking great pains to absolve Genghis Khan of a direct role in it. By way of contrast, it's notable that this official dynastic history openly admits that GK murdered his own brother over a petty childhood quarrel, and of course mercilessly slaughtered tens of thousands, so the whole thing gives you a sense that Teb Tengri's killing was regarded with great anxiety. It seems related to the noted superstitious dread Mongols had of spilling the blood of nobles, who were consequently killed with great care. In fact the graphic description of how TT is killed sounds rather bloodless, albeit painful.

At any rate, the Mongolian text seems to be lacking any informative terms for a distinct shaman or priest class. On the other hand, boo has a silent 'g' in the Classical script, so the word clearly has to predate the reduction of the 'g' in the later language.

 

[Torm]

Can't find the post I got this information from, but one fellow noted that one Mongol leader was supported by the Nestorian Christians in order to bollix any Mongol conquest of Europe. Not a likely scenario.

I said the stories were "admittedly mostly refuted by historians." I just thought it was a neat story angle sorta thing.

 

[Nisarg]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this.

Ritual Enochian magic would be the way to go.

Um, no, not really it wouldn't, given that Enochian magic was something invented whole-hog by John Dee and Edward Kelley in the late 16th century, and thus has absolutely no bearing on magic of the medieval (10th-15th century) period.

Nisarg

 

[tetsujin28]

tetsujin28
Yes I agree with you about the use of the word Shamanism. I was going to use the word animism instead since its broader in meaning but decided that for the purposes of DnD Shamanism was sufficient. Indeed the big problem with any translation of culturally specific terms (like boo) is that the translation (shaman, priest, doctor, Holy Man) never really fit

Exactly. I'm not too up on my Mongolian, but it is interesting that Victor Mair has shown that MSM (Modern Standard Mandarin) wu is derived from Old Sinitic *mag and Old Persian magus. Is there the possibility of drift from wu to boo?

 

[tarchon]

Exactly. I'm not too up on my Mongolian, but it is interesting that Victor Mair has shown that MSM (Modern Standard Mandarin) wu is derived from Old Sinitic *mag and Old Persian magus. Is there the possibility of drift from wu to boo?

Probably not from wu, but a derivation from magus wouldn't be shocking.

 

[fusangite]

Um, no, not really it wouldn't, given that Enochian magic was something invented whole-hog by John Dee and Edward Kelley in the late 16th century, and thus has absolutely no bearing on magic of the medieval (10th-15th century) period.

A John Dee-based campaign is on the long list of things on my back burner. One could do a really interesting combination of European angelology/demonology and Mexica magic. The fact that he used that grey Mexican seeing stone allows one to ask: what does it mean if the Smoking Mirror falls into the hands of a European?