Christian Magic

[fusangite]

OK, I'm into this sort of thing, and I've been meaning to purchase ONE source book. I had heard from more than one person that Expeditious Retreat's A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe was the greatest thing since sliced bread. So I'm reading this post, and there is overwhelming support for Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual. So much so that I feel like MMS is getting thrown under a bus. Now, I know that isn't true, a few people actually did briefly say good things about MMS, but all this praise for MPM certainly has me second guessing my next purchase!

In defense of MMS: WE (for which I have a small credit), the book is absolutely fabulous; it just doesn't do anything with the magic system. Even when it comes to religion, the part about how to graft poytheism onto medieval society is, in my view, the weakest point in the book. I think it's a brilliant document; it just assumes that people want to run D&D and that therefore, violent modification of the magic system is out of the question.

 

[Tonguez]

Just going back to 13th C I'm wondering how much 'Natural Philosophy' you will include in Christian Magic. AMongst the Natural Philosophers of the 13C were Albertus Magnus (a Dominicon Bishop), his student Tomas Aquinas and Roger Bacon (a Franciscan friar).
These three all relied heavily on Aristotle and the writings of Arab alchemist-scholars (who were invariably Muslim) such as Ibn Sina

I believe the 13th century was when Europe was almost run over by the then pagan Mongols (somewhere in the 1225-1240, I think?), being saved only by the Khan falling off his horse & breaking his neck in a drunken victory celebration (it's debatable that the Mongols could have conquered Europe, but a small Mongol force had basically annihilated a large combined force of Poles and Germans with some French Templar Knights thrown in for good measure, so they were a major threat even if they could not conquer Europe...) The Mongols later converted to Islam as well.

The Mongol religion was Shamanism, however by the time they reached Europe (Russia in about 1230) many had accepted Bhuddism and much of the army was already Muslim (from the mongol practice of accepting conquered peoples (eg Uzbeks, Turks) as Mongol citizens and welcoming them into their ranks). The Nestorian Christians were also active in Asia and Genghis Khan actively encouraged them all (although he remained resolutely 'pagan').

The Mongols did invade Poland and Hungary in about 1240 and where beginning the seige of Vienna before they withdrew to Russia where the Golden Horde held power until about 1480 (although by then they had fragmented). The Siberian Khanate was annexed to the Muscovy state by 1600 and the Khanate of Crimea was the last survivng remanant being annexed in 1783

 

[TerraDave]

In defense of MMS: WE (for which I have a small credit), the book is absolutely fabulous; it just doesn't do anything with the magic system. Even when it comes to religion, the part about how to graft poytheism onto medieval society is, in my view, the weakest point in the book. I think it's a brilliant document; it just assumes that people want to run D&D and that therefore, violent modification of the magic system is out of the question.

Right, no one has a problem with that multi-Ennie winning product

Green Ronin's Medieval Player book has a lot of alternate rules and classes to more closely match the beliefs of the era (and to allow play of very different kinds of characters, like a the Natural Philosopher of the sort Tonguez mentioned in his post).

One is a general world building guide, the other a player oriented supplement for campaigns set in medieval England

 

[cstyle]

Which book to buy, part 2

Thanks so much for the feedback on the two books!

Here's a completely different question concerning them. If I wanted to run a one shot or two, just to play around and see how much I like gaming in the medieval world, which book makes it easier? I.e. which book requires less work to throw together a quick game?

Thanks again!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

For that there is no doubt that the Medieval Player is better.

MMS:WE is by far the better book for creating a whole campaign world, but MP is much easier to base short campaigns off of. MMS:WE is a great book for the DM. (And the sequel A Magical Society: Ecology and Culture is also very, very good for starting to build your own world.)

MP has details for classes, equipment, feats, and other stuff that is useful to the players. And for a one shot that is what you need, something to pull the players into the world. David Chart is very clear on his writing and on his editing, and I can also recommend the entire Atlas Ars Magica line, many of which can be used for any game, not just Ars.

The best answer of course is to get both of them! Or, more realistically the print version of MP and the PDF for MMS:WE. Since you don't really need to lug it to the table every game having it on your computer works hust fine. (Which is what I have done.)

Either way, at least look at the demo for MMS:WE - A Magical Medieval City Guide. You can get it at RPGNow.com.

So use MP to test the waters, then if you and your players get hooked then buy MMS:WE too, they are not mutually exclusive, and work quite well together. (Better than either alone.)

The Auld Grump, and a big thumbs up to Expeditious Retreat for having free samples that were useful! And it certainly caused my purchase...

 

[WmRAllen67]

I would check out GURPS Voodoo as well, for a ritual based system that's geared to be fairly subtle; as well, Mike Monaco has done some research on translating aspects of medieval belief into the ruleset (here: http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Magic/Rituals/Mediav.htm and here: http://gurpsnet.sjgames.com/Archive/Magic/Rituals/Besti.htm)

Some translation will be necessary, but it would seem to fit the bill...

Other suggestions, off the top of my head:

Skull and Bones' take on magic items, and the "djab" creature type, for those old dieties that are no longer worshipped, but still around...

"Hedge Magic" a la S. John Ross: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/hedge.htm

"Divine Magic" by fiat-- laying on hands, calling doom down on your enemies, the extra strength to save the day; that's all at the diety's whim, not yours...(we all remember that scene in Poltergeist when the mother calls out to God to help her and saves the kids, right?)


Just my late-night, long-day, I'm sleepy $0.02...

Bill

 

[tetsujin28]

I'm currently producing a homebrew world that is set in the 13th century. Because it is an historical game (but historical in the sense that what people believed to be true then is true in the game), most magic will be Christian. Does anyone have any experience or ideas for how to make that work? I'm designing a prayer mechanic, a demonic possession mechanic and trying to come up with a way to deal with action by angels. Any and all ideas would be appreciated.

As far as game mechanics? Sure: Burning Wheel has great summoning mechanics. I'll also second the systems found in GURPS Voodoo and (esp.) GURPS Spirits. The demon systems in Stormbringer 1e could also easily be modified.

For source material, I recommend Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power, edited by Marvin. W. Meyer, and Richard Smith. It'll open your eyes to just how dang weird early Christianity was.

 

[tetsujin28]

The Mongol religion was Shamanism

It's especially tricky trying to discern exactly what Mongol beliefs were, other than 'pagan', i.e. not Christian. All current research points to shamanism being a relatively recent construction relying upon contact with lamaism. It's also important to keep in mind that shamanism (in the form encountered in the Altai region), is more a technique than a belief, and that even only fifty years since the publication of many of the major papers, it has changed drastically. Also the work of Mircea Eliade, author of the seminal work on shamanism, is pretty much in academic disrepute.

The ancient beliefs of the Mongols (and the entirety of Central Asia) is pretty much impossible to reconstruct. Many of our religious works from Central Asia are in Tocharian, and written either in Brahmi or Kharosthi, and are either Buddhist or Manichean. Of course, Mani was highly influenced by early Christianity, but other than the texts from the Tarim Basin, all the information we have on Manicheaism is attacks from Christian apologists. Regarding the early (pre-Buddhist contact) religion in the area, good work is being done by Esther Jacobsen in the area of the Gorno-Altai.

Of course, we do have numerous texts from the Nestorian Christian communities in Syriac, Sogdian, Middle Persian, and Turkish, as well as in Chinese at Chang'an, and it is known that there were Nestorian Christians amongs the followers of the Mongol Khan. The language most responsible for the spread was Sogdian.

A good source for debating the validity of 'shamanism' is The Concept of Shamanism: Uses and Abuses, edited by Henri-Paul Francfort and Roberte Hamayon.

 

[Piratecat]

As a moderator, I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone who has kept this thread focused, interesting and on topic. I'm really pleased.

 

[Storyteller01]

Haven't read the whole thread, so cry foul if this has been said before...

The Exorcist power class from MGP may be useful. Only costs $2 to $3. Basically a cleric that loses their spontaneous healing ability in lew of more versatile uses of their Turning ability, as well as more uses of that ability per day. High level Exorsists can turn Undead and fey, as well as banish elementals and demons/devils. I believe they can lengthen the time a turn takes to increase its potency. They can also 'detect' when someone is charmed, under a compulsion, or possessed. Higher level Exorcists can actually target the possessor/enchanter by casting the spells though the victim.

They gain the ability to spontaneously cast domain spells in later levels, but it's the Wards and Benedictions that really add to the class. They take time to cast, but the benefits tend to be worth it.

Need a weapon that does extra damage to that demon? Can you cast Magic weapon? Sacrifice X turns for the day, and the weapon will do Xd6 to said type of creature.

Need a ward? Can you cast protection from evil? Sacrifice some turns for the day, and create a circle that the creature type cannot enter (Will save every round or be thrown 10 feet away from the circle).

You can even 'store' the ability for as long as a month, but youm do not regain your turn uses per day until the ward/benediction is used.

The bit about having to learn the wards and benedictions was a bit off. You can simply house rule that they already know them. The power level scales with the amount of turns sacrificed for the day, and the amount of available turns also scales with the character level.