Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Staffan]

The most commonly used expression is "The Spanish Inquisition", rather than "Christian Inquisition", but then again nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Actually...
[video=youtube_share;o85NK1EEnMY]http://youtu.be/o85NK1EEnMY[/video]

 

[Umbran]

So I have to ask, do you really have a problem with me shortening the phrase from History of Islam to Islamic History? Or do you have a problem when I speak of the white-washing of Islamic History? Is it better to say the white-washing of the History within Muslim countries? Do you want more words?

If I may, I think the basic issue is this: No matter what wikipedia may say, when you lump "history of states that happen to be Islamic" under "history of Islam", and even more under "Islamic history", you have an implicit assumption that the historic events are relevant, and historic decisions made, largely *because* of Islam. As opposed, for example, due to other socio-economic factors, or the individual personalities of leaders, that aren't really specific to Islam.

Basically, you are giving Islam top billing, and that may not be accurate for all issues.

 

[Sadras]

And as I stated many many times, there isn't really one Islamic religion, as it is interpreted and applied in various ways by different sects. That pesky point you keep ignoring.

The Quran has some passages about apostacy, I'm not talking about the Hadith or the Ahadith. I'm not talking about its application either, I'm speaking about the reference of apostacy within the Quran solely.

First point: there isn't any raw Islam. It varies like Christianity, as stated above. Second point: European values vary. Abortions laws in Ireland are very restrictive, something some conservative Musims would approve of and more liberal ones would condemn. Same sex unions aren't allowed or recognized in every European country, which would please some conservative Muslims and displease more liberal ones. France has some very restrictive hate speech laws, which might please some Muslims, anger others and make a US citizen go mad. Muslims are just like Europeans, they have various opinions. Even some native Europeans oppose freedom of speech, separation of church and state, same sex unions...

I don't necessarily disagree with your points but there are other things one must consider, for instance:

Religion and Identity. Muslims in Germany, Britain, and France were twice as likely as the general public to consider religion a significant part of their daily lives, according to a 2007 Gallup poll. A Pew 2006 poll shows that Muslims in Europe are much more likely to identify themselves by their religion before their nationality. However, the Gallup poll also shows that religious affinity does not make Muslims less likely to identify with their host countries.
Even some Muslims who aren't particularly religious may be drawn to projecting a strong Islamic identity in response to feelings of isolation and their perceptions of the moral permissiveness of Western culture.

Culture and Democracy. Some argue that Muslim culture is at odds with Europe on issues such as freedom of expression, the rights of women, and the separation of church and state. Financial Times columnist Christopher Caldwell, in his 2009 book Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West, concludes: "Europe finds itself in a contest with Islam for the allegiance of its newcomers. For now, Islam is the stronger party in that contest, in an obvious demographic way and in less obvious philosophical way."
Caldwell points out the cultural disconnect Islam is causing for Europeans: On the one hand, Europeans expect a strong division between church and state. On the other, Europeans' aspirations for tolerance impede their ability to criticize Islam in the same way they have historically criticized Christianity. There have been numerous cases of Muslims using Europe's hate speech laws to defend against what they consider defamation of Islam. Meanwhile, cases such as the 2004 murder of Theo van Gogh (BBC) for his film "Submission," critical of treatment of women in Islam, are considered evidence of intolerance by Muslims toward freedom of expression.

Cesari and Brookings' Vaisse note understanding the line between criticism and bigotry will take time for all Europeans. Cesari contends Muslims need to learn that criticism is part of the democratic process and that the "inability to hear one another" may be the greatest problem of the Euro-Muslim debate.

But even if we say you're right, that Islam goes against European values, Christian values aren't that different from Islam and European values still happened.

It has taken years, and as I have stated upthread, Islam is only around the 1400 year mark in terms of age...

Well, you keep saying there is one Muslim ideology, which isn't the case

Can one criticise Islam as freely as one does Christianity? Yes or No? It is a simple question.

And yet just above you constest it by saying Muslims enter European countries in masses. You're holding to contradictory positions.

Sigh. You do know your table from the Guardian reflected muslims already in the country and not the refugees entering the country right? It is two different exercises.

What if its never? What if migrants were simple people and not a bad addition to a country?

And there it is. This comment here reflects that you have absolutely no comprehension of the European people. I have repeatedly stated that you and me live in salad societies which is quite different to those of Europe. There is a strong sense within the homeland countries to protect the heritage and culture of the people.
Since you said ‘never’ lets run with that leftist hypothesis – minority grows to a point where:
A once Christian dominated nation is now littered with mosques.
Arabic becomes an official language of the nation.
A new burgeoning ecomonic market regarding Halal foods leads to the natives losing out on revenue unless they conform and cater to muslim dietary requirements.
…etc
All this will make the natives feels like their nation has been taken over by foreigners. The Europeans nations are not searching to form some mangled version of Canada or the States.

The actual numbers about Muslims immigrants are easily accessable and yet people's perception are still distorted. That means people aren't informed and their fear isn't base in rationality.

At what point to the immigrants cease or slow down. You have stated never. I have shown you why that would not be appealing to a European nation. Interestingly Gadaffi had said “If I go down, Europe goes black.

Better ignore info that doesn't fit the narrative. Got it.

It is not about ignoring the info, but I have found differing info to you on the net, starting with wiki. I could just as easily say you are ignoring my info, instead I have been reasonable and countered that we ignore the experts for now. There is no reason to be bitchy.

You're confused by me saying Muslims shouldn't be feared? That explains a lot.

Your original comment made no sense with what I had written.

Your comment about "entire European Governments" was about governments fearing the influence of Islam. Which isn't the case. At least the "entire" part.

Now you have backtracked again. Why is the ‘entire’ part not the case? Have entire nations not made new policies due to these waves of immigrants?

Very similar one. It is about politics being dominated by fears not backed by facts and letting those fears lead to discrimination. It probably won't end in extermination camp this time around, but discrimination is growing.

Okay. My issue in this debate is not the policies which will lead to discrimination. That is a result of the Islamophobia. The debate between us is: Is Islamophobia justified. You believe not, I have stated in which instances I can excuse it. Whether or not it leads to discrimination is not the topic.

Facts invalidate their fear. Facts like there is no one Islamic ideology,

Criticism of the Religion, Apostacy, Religion over State (to name a few) are pretty strong issues within Islam. I’m not saying all muslims are the same, but one can also not be blind to these issues that exist with this religion either.

Muslims are a minority

At what point is the minority allowed to request special privileges? Secondly, Europeans do not want to minorities to grow – again they are not the States or Canada. You are asking nations to accept thousands of foreigners – it is alarming to see so many foreigners enter a country at one time, Xenophobia will kick in, this is natural.
It is essentially racism, but you must understand x people (Greeks) are used to dealing with x people (Greeks) everyday, not large masses of Muslims. Greece already suffered +/-400 years under the Ottoman rule, and since Turkey never accepts blame - both for the Genocide of the Armenian and the illegal occupation of Cyprus, nevermind their false teaching regarding the ownership of the Greek islands of their coastline.
So how about if Communist Russians came in droves and settled in a State of America…I can’t imagine America would do nothing. And I wouldn’t blame them.

they do not have a lot influence on politics and the media...

People of Europe worry about their children’s children and what their homeland country will look like when they’ve grown up. Again this might be alien for you to understand since you live on the other side of the pond so we generally live for the now and perhaps our children

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have repeatedly stated that you and me live in salad societies which is quite different to those of Europe. There is a strong sense within the homeland countries to protect the heritage and culture of the people.
Since you said ‘never’ lets run with that leftist hypothesis – minority grows to a point where:
A once Christian dominated nation is now littered with mosques.
Arabic becomes an official language of the nation.

Given what we know about population dynamics, those possibilities are...remote...at best, barring a successful mass slaughter of Europeans by Muslims or some kind of natural catastrophe or plate that doesn't affect the immigrants' population.

A new burgeoning ecomonic market regarding Halal foods leads to the natives losing out on revenue unless they conform and cater to muslim dietary requirements.

Economically improbable in any meaningful sense.

In the area of the Dallas/FW metroplex in which I reside, there has been a huge influx of Indian and Arabic people. This HAS changed the local tapestry of business, but not as you predict.

One theater that has struggled for the past 15 years was bought out (for the third time) and now shows predominantly Indian films. But not a single thriving business has been replaced nor restructured their business model significantly to kowtow to the immigrants. Grocery stores still sell beef & pork, though some have added a new subsection to their "International" aisle. If someone wants halal, kosher, or Hindu-specific products, their best bet is to shop at one of the growing number of ethnic markets...the largest of which ALSO sell bog-standard products as would be found in a mainstream American grocery.

There have been a host of new Indian and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern restaurants pop up...and many of them withered away in just months, just like all the other restaurants of other cuisines that are found here. One space a block from my house has been occupied by 4 Mexican restaurants in the past 15 years, and is now on its second Indian slot.

At what point is the minority allowed to request special privileges?

Depends on the country, the minority, and the "special privileges" being requested. And if the privileges are indeed special, of course.

Secondly, Europeans do not want to minorities to grow – again they are not the States or Canada. You are asking nations to accept thousands of foreigners – it is alarming to see so many foreigners enter a country at one time, Xenophobia will kick in, this is natural.
It is essentially racism, but you must understand x people (Greeks) are used to dealing with x people (Greeks) everyday, not large masses of Muslims. Greece already suffered +/-400 years under the Ottoman rule, and since Turkey never accepts blame - both for the Genocide of the Armenian and the illegal occupation of Cyprus, nevermind their false teaching regarding the ownership of the Greek islands of their coastline.

So how about if Communist Russians came in droves and settled in a State of America…I can’t imagine America would do nothing. And I wouldn’t blame them.

Americans DID do something when the xenophobia kicked in...and when it abated, things returned to business as usual.
http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classro...vities/presentations/immigration/polish3.html

Please believe that Americans have their own rich heritage of xenophobia despite our "melting pot" rhetoric. Besides the Russians & Poles, America has tried to keep out each new ethnicity of immigrants hitting its shores- Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.- and some of it even gets codified into law. That's why Cubans have rules that apply to them but not to Dominicans, Hatians, and the like. That's why Puerto Ricans, Amercian Samoans, and others in American protectorates & territories may be legally natural born citizens (depending on which one specifically), but can't vote in presidential elections or even become president.

 

[Kramodlog]

The Quran has some passages about apostacy, I'm not talking about the Hadith or the Ahadith. I'm not talking about its application either, I'm speaking about the reference of apostacy within the Quran solely.

Well, if application isn't an issue, the Bible states that we can stone women who weren't virgins when they married, stone children who aren't respecful of their parents and stone homosexual men, giving a new meaning to the expression "getting stoned". Oh, and slaves should obey their masters, not try to be free and masters shouldn't set them free.

It has taken years, and as I have stated upthread, Islam is only around the 1400 year mark in terms of age...

So what? Age doesn't mean more or less instrumentalization of a religion to justify violence. Catholics and Anglicans in Uganda persecute homosexuals even if Christianity is 2,000 years old. After 2,000 years, Catholics in Ireland still oppress women by deny them access to abortions if they choose.

Can one criticise Islam as freely as one does Christianity? Yes or No? It is a simple question.

Yes. You've been doing it rather well.

Sigh. You do know your table from the Guardian reflected muslims already in the country and not the refugees entering the country right?

As if islamophobia in Europe only started with the current events or that people won't overestimate the importance of the refugees when they overestimate regular immigration.

And there it is.

Nope. You asked what I thought, not what Europeans thought. You keep moving the goal post.

This comment here reflects that you have absolutely no comprehension of the European people.

Says the guy from South Africa. You really think Europe isn't diverse?

I have repeatedly stated that you and me live in salad societies which is quite different to those of Europe.

First off, not all European societies are homogenous. Just check out Switzerland, Luxembourg, Belgium and Romania. Secondly, plot twist, Europe is diverse already. How many languages, religions, ethnic groups do you think there is there? Thirdly, I do not live in a mix society. I come from Québec and it is rather homogenous.

There is a strong sense within the homeland countries to protect the heritage and culture of the people.
Since you said ‘never’ lets run with that leftist hypothesis – minority grows to a point where:
A once Christian dominated nation is now littered with mosques.
Arabic becomes an official language of the nation.
A new burgeoning ecomonic market regarding Halal foods leads to the natives losing out on revenue unless they conform and cater to muslim dietary requirements.
…etc

Here lies the problem with what you're saying: none of this has happened, is happening or will happen. If someone is afraid of what you listed it isn't rational because it isn't based on any fact. It is thus an irrational fear. Why is irrationality is ok with you, is mind boggling. Might as well say that Muslim immigrants will increase the number of unicorns in Europe, unicorns impale people, thus Europeans are justified to fear Muslims.

All this will make the natives feels like their nation has been taken over by foreigners.

"Will make". So it hasn't happened yet. And there isn't any credible sign it will.

The Europeans nations are not searching to form some mangled version of Canada or the States.

Sure. It is impossible the European union becomes the United-States of Europe. Impossible, I tell you!

And I must say I'm surprised the US is presented as a model of diversity and multiculturality. What happened to the American Melting Pot?

At what point to the immigrants cease or slow down. You have stated never.

Nope. Your question was "at what point do immigrants become too much". My answer was that maybe there can't be too many immigrants.

I have shown you why that would not be appealing to a European nation.

Nope. You haven't showed me that there is evidence of the Islamisation of Europe.

Interestingly Gadaffi had said “If I go down, Europe goes black.

And that is a credible source for you? Did you know Putin was in Ukraine to stop antisemitism?

we ignore the experts for now.

Yeah, truthiness is the way to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

Your original comment made no sense with what I had written.

And what was the sense of what you had written?

Now you have backtracked again. Why is the ‘entire’ part not the case?

Because it is not? Not all European governments, like you said, fear the Islamisation of Europe. Unless your saying that all government are islamophobic right now. I'm not even sure how someone can be ok with that.

Okay. My issue in this debate is not the policies which will lead to discrimination. That is a result of the Islamophobia. The debate between us is: Is Islamophobia justified. You believe not, I have stated in which instances I can excuse it. Whether or not it leads to discrimination is not the topic.

You excuse ignorance, fictional facts and prejudices. I'm not sure why this seems acceptable to you. Excusing antisemitism didn't do any good, quit the opposite. If you excuse it, you excuse the the discrimination that comes with it. They aren't separated issues as islamophobia leads to discrimination.

Criticism of the Religion, Apostacy, Religion over State (to name a few) are pretty strong issues within Islam.

Again, that homogenous block.

I’m not saying all muslims are the same,

Pretty much. You even excuse people who believe it cause for some reason that is justified to believe things that aren't true.

but one can also not be blind to these issues that exist with this religion either.

That exist in Islamist groups and ideology. That darn nuance thing.

At what point is the minority allowed to request special privileges?

People confuse equal treatment to special treatment. A lot of people who are against same sex unions say that it is giving special rights to homosexuals when it is just about giving them the same rights as straight people.

Secondly, Europeans do not want to minorities to grow

I didn't know you were Europe's spokesperson on the question of minority growth.

You are asking nations to accept thousands of foreigners – it is alarming to see so many foreigners enter a country at one time, Xenophobia will kick in, this is natural.

But shouldn't be excused or pandered too. That is my point. It should be opposed. Complacency is not acceptable as nothing good comes out of xenophobia.

So how about if Communist Russians came in droves and settled in a State of America…I can’t imagine America would do nothing. And I wouldn’t blame them.

Why stop at the abuse of mccarthyism? Why not say that you wouldn't blame klansmen for thinking that black men were out to rape white women?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's rather comical when the group in power complains about "oppression" because they're losing their privileged position and becoming just regular citizens. I wonder if that's how white South Africans felt as Apartheid was coming to an end?

IIRC, that is how all privileged groups react to a deduction in privilege or supremacy . It's a bonafide psychological thing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Some more on American xenophobia:

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...-about-jeb-bush-tying-anchor-babies-to-asians

 

[Sadras]

If I may, I think the basic issue is this: No matter what wikipedia may say, when you lump "history of states that happen to be Islamic" under "history of Islam", and even more under "Islamic history", you have an implicit assumption that the historic events are relevant, and historic decisions made, largely *because* of Islam. As opposed, for example, due to other socio-economic factors, or the individual personalities of leaders, that aren't really specific to Islam.

Basically, you are giving Islam top billing, and that may not be accurate for all issues.

To clarify the issues I did name: The tearing apart of India largely due to muslim Indians preferring self-governance than being governed by Hindus; the laws within the Egypt which negatively affect non-Islamic religions; the refusal of a supposed secular state, IMO, (Turkey) to recognise a genocide of a Christian minority performed within an Islamic Caliphate, the persecution of Christians and Indigenous religions in the middle East by muslims; and the abduction of 200 Christian girls in Nigeria. If those things to you do not predominantly give Islam top billing, then I apologise, but from my point of view - they do.

 

[Kramodlog]

To clarify the issues I did name: The tearing apart of India largely due to muslim Indians preferring self-governance than being governed by Hindus;

Is it that surprising that people with a different culture want to govern themselves or is it only something that happens among Muslims?

the laws within the Egypt which negatively affect non-Islamic religions;

Is it that surprising that a majority makes laws that oppress a minority or is it something that only happens with Muslims?

the refusal of a supposed secular state,

Heh.

(Turkey) to recognise a genocide of a Christian minority performed within an Islamic Caliphate,

The US federal government doesn't recognize the genocide. It must mean the US is a Islamist nation.

the persecution of Christians and Indigenous religions in the middle East by muslims;

Indigenous populations were persecuted in the Americas. It must mean Muslims colonized the continents.

and the abduction of 200 Christian girls in Nigeria.

Women treated as a commodity!? That is a first.

 

[Sadras]

Is it that surprising that people with a different culture want to govern themselves or is it only something that happens among Muslims?

My issue was, that the split of India relates to Islamic History. Do you disagree that India's separation forms part of the spread of Islam and therefore can be considered Islamic History?

Is it that surprising that a majority makes laws that oppress a minority or is it something that only happens with Muslims?

My issue was that the oppressive laws put into effect to affect non-Muslims as a result of the majority (the lawmakers) being Muslim. Do you disagree this should be considered as part of Islamic History within Egypt?

Heh.

You're excused.

The US federal government doesn't recognize the genocide. It must mean the US is a Islamist nation.

I did not argue that Turkey was an Islamist government for you to make this statement. At this point it seems like you will take issue with anything I write just because. Seems like an awful amount of time to waste. Also, there is a difference with calling a nation Islamic and Islamist (as I learned in this thread).

Indigenous populations were persecuted in the Americas. It must mean Muslims colonized the continents.

Again see my point above. This has nothing to do with the issue being discussed.

Women treated as a commodity!? That is a first.

Sigh.