Cloak of Invisibility: Best item in the game?

[Tharizdun]

I've read this thread with much interest, and after perusing the books I came to the conclusion that the cloak is not overpowerd.
A good Dm knows what his players are up to, and in this case he would have 30 levels of experience.
By the time the PC was 30th level, I'm sure a ritual like "invisibility purge" could be used by Orcus and his henchmen. Or one of Orcus' party or even Orcus himself can be given a ring of true sight (see DM Toolbox, monsters can be given magic to use, take a few HP, to hit/AC away from Orcus, give him magic instead). If the PC's beat Orcus, fine, their Campaign is over so who cares that they get the item. If not, well, maybe the next generation of PCs will find a different method to kill big old O.

Don't see Orcus as a bunch of stats, he's level 33 and as a big gun, he's used to getting attacked by wannabe's who want to make a name for themselves.

As a DM, I would see if the ranger abused his invisibility. if not, let him kill O (and O kill his party). If he did, I'd throw the ring of true sight/ invisibility purge ritual scheme at him.

I think that changing the rules outright (without trying to beat the Player at his own game with the game) to prevent the PC using the cloak is a sign of weakness, and not the kind of DM I'd have at the helm of my adventuring life.

 

[mrfarenheid]

I joined enworld because this really annoyed me... what all you are thinking is that Orcus is some sort of PC enemy boss with an script behind him and not a smart DM using it.

I hope this thread's creator to be beaten by that DM

 

[Otterscrubber]

I'm a little confused on how invis-ranger gets a 30 dex? Can someone explain? And the 26 Wis?

 

[Otterscrubber]

I joined enworld because this really annoyed me... what all you are thinking is that Orcus is some sort of PC enemy boss with an script behind him and not a smart DM using it.

I hope this thread's creator to be beaten by that DM

Seriously, there are ways around invisibility. When you attack aren't you no longer "hidden"? Even if you are invisibile to sight, you are not stealthed at that point. During that time anyone knows what square you are standing in. Couldn't orcus or whoever, Meepo at that point just use a held action to attack at -5 and blow the invis before the end of the rangers round when he gets to re-stealth?

This is not broken at all and requires no rules adjustments from what I can tell.

 

[Destil]

Wizards, Warlords, and Warlocks I'll give you. They have a use for Intelligence. No one else is going to dump Dex when they could dump Int instead. Dex is unquestionably a better stat than Int. It does everything Int does AND adds to Initiative (except for skills, where it doesn't really matter if you're deciding which to dump - it's going to be a difference of +1 at most). You'll see far, far more stupid characters than clumsy ones.

Wizard, Warlock and Warlord multiclass feats all have some appeal. And we're looking at +1 Dex. Everyone who thinks Dex for initiatives is a non-choice hasn't thought about Knowledge (Monsters), Ritual Casting and the average length of a 4E encounter (init just isn't that big, and one feat with no prerequisite fixes the problem if you care that much).

I'll give you the other two points you brought up (though +stealth armor is really not a given, can't get that in Godplate)... so what about the other 6?

 

[Otterscrubber]

I'm a little confused on how invis-ranger gets a 30 dex? Can someone explain? And the 26 Wis?

Is it bad etiquette to quote yourself? Anyhoo, was wondering if the OP could answer this as well as respond to how his invisi-ranger attack plans survive a simple held action on the part of whoever invisi-ranger is fighting?

 

[Zurai]

I'm a little confused on how invis-ranger gets a 30 dex? Can someone explain? And the 26 Wis?

His starting stats (pre-race) are 10 str, 11 con, 18 dex, 10 int, 14 wis, 8 cha. After racial stats, that's 20 dex and 16 wis. He puts +1 in both stats at every 4 and 8 level, and +1 in all stats at 11 and 21. In addition, at level 21, his Demigod status gives him the special trait Divine Spark, which is +2 to 2 stats. 20 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 +1 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 30. Similarly with 16 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 26.

Seriously, there are ways around invisibility. When you attack aren't you no longer "hidden"? Even if you are invisibile to sight, you are not stealthed at that point. During that time anyone knows what square you are standing in. Couldn't orcus or whoever, Meepo at that point just use a held action to attack at -5 and blow the invis before the end of the rangers round when he gets to re-stealth?

This is not broken at all and requires no rules adjustments from what I can tell.

I already covered this earlier in the thread. Invisibility has nothing to do with being "hidden". The only way to detect an invisible creatures/character is to succeed on a Perception vs Stealth check. Attacking does not reveal an invisible creature/character unless the power text says otherwise. Attacking does not make the invisible creature auto-fail its Perception vs Stealth check unless you're using a house rule.

 

[Otterscrubber]

His starting stats (pre-race) are 10 str, 11 con, 18 dex, 10 int, 14 wis, 8 cha. After racial stats, that's 20 dex and 16 wis. He puts +1 in both stats at every 4 and 8 level, and +1 in all stats at 11 and 21. In addition, at level 21, his Demigod status gives him the special trait Divine Spark, which is +2 to 2 stats. 20 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 +1 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 30. Similarly with 16 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 26.I already covered this earlier in the thread. Invisibility has nothing to do with being "hidden". The only way to detect an invisible creatures/character is to succeed on a Perception vs Stealth check. Attacking does not reveal an invisible creature/character unless the power text says otherwise. Attacking does not make the invisible creature auto-fail its Perception vs Stealth check unless you're using a house rule.

Invisibility may not have anything to do with being hidden, but any use of the stealth skill does. It is the only thing the stealth skill is for in fact, to remain hidden. In fact the rules under stealth for superior cover or total concealment exactly match what is written under using stealth while invisible. However, under stealth it also clearly states some actions that cause you to be not hidden. When this happens the enemy can locate you if they can see or hear you. Obviously if you are invisible, they can't see you. But you are not silenced and they know where you are until you can do something to re-stealth.

 

[Ciaran]

F) Allow me to introduce Aid Another. Something that's actually broken. Minions were built for this. He may not be part of the problem, but Orcus' allies can all use Aid Another every round. Automatic +20 right there.

Zurai, you didn't respond to this one. Is Destil incorrect about this being a viable counter to the Cloak?

 

[Zurai]

Invisibility may not have anything to do with being hidden, but any use of the stealth skill does. It is the only thing the stealth skill is for in fact, to remain hidden. In fact the rules under stealth for superior cover or total concealment exactly match what is written under using stealth while invisible. However, under stealth it also clearly states some actions that cause you to be not hidden. When this happens the enemy can locate you if they can see or hear you. Obviously if you are invisible, they can't see you. But you are not silenced and they know where you are until you can do something to re-stealth.

Incorrect. The rules for Invisible creatures are separate from the rules for creatures using Stealth to hide. If they wanted all of the same conditions to apply, they would have just said "Because an Invisible creature has total concealment, it may use the Stealth skill even if it doesn't have cover or concealment otherwise" (or something similar). Instead, they give a third of a page to explain how Invisibility works. In actuality, there are a lot of changes to the rules for invisible creatures. It's only a minor action to actively search for them, you don't have any idea of the distance to them unless you beat their check by 10, you can never target them directly, and attacking doesn't automatically unstealth them.