Cloverfield - The Immortal's Handbook 4E to 3.5 Conversion

[Upper_Krust]

Hey.

Howdy!

Okay, then. Only thing is, a Macrobe ignores Esoterics? I was under the impression that bereft of a divine/sidereal/eternal template, you could only go one category higher, i.e. divines for Gargy.

I'd probably let him get Cosmic abilities but no higher. Though that does break the rule I guess.

(Does he mind if I call him Gargy?)

GARGY!? Gargillion SMASH puny human!

I can see how 4E would be better in this case, too. I've never been too big a fan to crazy-big characters/opponents, so the problems with super sizes never really showed up for me in 3E.

It'll be easy in 4E if you ever get round to it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Khisanth matey!

That's ... highly questionable. Sauropods were perfectly competent, nowhere close to "could barely walk" - they were incredibly successful animals.

Compared to horses or even elephants the larger Sauropods were ridiculously slow and ponderous (if documentaries like Walking with Dinosaurs are to be believed).

I don't think he's right, though. Remember the history of pterosaur sizes. "Oh, nothing bigger than a condor could fly." Then they discovered Pteranodon ingens, with a 7-meter wingspan (bigger species of Pteranodon have been found since). "Oh, this is the biggest animal that could ever fly." Then they discovered 11-12-meter wingspan Quetzalcoatlus. "Oh, this is the biggest... etc, etc." - and at first, apparently due to incredulity at the thought of a 250kg flying animal, ludicrously low mass estimates were suggested. Then they discovered Hatzegopteryx which probably massed nearly 500kg (and even that puts its density below 0.6 g/cu cm!).

Theres a world of difference between a creature twice as big existing and a creature 16 times as big existing.

Anyway, doing the math, normal bone *is* strong enough if allometric scaling and pneumaticity is used right. It just needs thick legs, and lots of air sacs. A 500 ton AmeriZilla's cartilage can maybe survive (look at how thick its legs are!), and if its cartilage can, bones aren't even at risk.

I think you are getting carried away with this air sac component.

I concede that its ludicrous athletic ability requires tougher-than-normal tissue; but its size alone probably does not. Most of the improvement would need to be in cartilage. The bone would need to be stronger, but not by high-tech-alloy levels.

Godzilla would.

Anyway, no large animal in Earth's history has ever had *reason* to be athletic.

These ain't historical animals though.

If there was sufficient selection pressure, you could probably end up with a lot more agility in big animals than Earth's ever seen. The only group of land animals ever to exceed 20-25 tons were the sauropods, and they were locked into slow-moving body forms long before they got that large. The other essays in really big (10+ tons) land animals in Earth's history were the proboscideans (elephants, mammoths, etc.), rhinoceroses (specifically the indricotheres), and the hadrosaurs. The first two again were slow-moving long before they got big; the hadrosaurs' body plans didn't get particularly 'elephantine' even at 20+ tons. (One carnivorous dinosaur, Spinosaurus, may have exceeded 10 tons, and it was actually fairly lightly built.)

1/4 ton seems to be close to the limit for a flying creature. 10 tons seems to be about the maximum for a Biped. 100 tons or thereabouts for a quadruped. Not sure what the limit for an aquatic creature would be, 200 tons is a possibility.

...But I think we're a bit off the original topic of the thread. I'll put up my idea of AmeriZilla stats in General Monster Talk, though, when I get the chance.

Okay, cool. Let me know when you have that up.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Yeah, what I meant about the "no animal in Earth's history" thing is that no very large (10+ tons) animal has ever had evolutionary pressures to be fast or agile, so real animals of that size aren't necessarily good guides. We can't deduce from the slowness of sauropods, rhinos, and elephants that all huge animals will be slow, since all three groups were slow before they became huge.

I'm not saying American Godzilla was realistic, though - it was way too fast for any land animal, and big stuff wouldn't jump like that. I'm just not ready to say that 500 ton bipeds made of 'regular' tissue are physically impossible - it's little more than a x5 increase of what has existed, since diplodocid sauropods put most of their weight on hindlimbs and Amphicoelias fragillimus probably well exceeded 100 tons (estimated up to 135 tons!)

---

Here's the American Godzilla I posted in Homebrews: http://www.enworld.org/forum/homebrews/266997-american-godzilla.html#post4974175

He has the insane Jump bonus because of the crazily high speed.

He's Colossal (though on the very upper end, look at the advancement) due to the 500 ton weight, but mostly because a Titanic creature would probably have too many HD to go down to mere air-to-surface missiles. I'll write up a Titanic version later, with 72 HD, to see how powerful it would be...

I'm not sure about the CR, but he's far weaker than the tarrasque. The really high speed makes his lack of ranged attacks irrelevant, though, so he might be under-CR'd - what do you think? Still, I think he's in my intended CR 15-20 range.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hola amigo!

Yeah, what I meant about the "no animal in Earth's history" thing is that no very large (10+ tons) animal has ever had evolutionary pressures to be fast or agile, so real animals of that size aren't necessarily good guides. We can't deduce from the slowness of sauropods, rhinos, and elephants that all huge animals will be slow, since all three groups were slow before they became huge.

Okay.

I'm not saying American Godzilla was realistic, though - it was way too fast for any land animal, and big stuff wouldn't jump like that. I'm just not ready to say that 500 ton bipeds made of 'regular' tissue are physically impossible - it's little more than a x5 increase of what has existed, since diplodocid sauropods put most of their weight on hindlimbs and Amphicoelias fragillimus probably well exceeded 100 tons (estimated up to 135 tons!)

Thats still quite a mark away from 500 tons...especially a 500 ton biped.

Here's the American Godzilla I posted in Homebrews: http://www.enworld.org/forum/homebrews/266997-american-godzilla.html#post4974175

He has the insane Jump bonus because of the crazily high speed.

He's Colossal (though on the very upper end, look at the advancement) due to the 500 ton weight, but mostly because a Titanic creature would probably have too many HD to go down to mere air-to-surface missiles. I'll write up a Titanic version later, with 72 HD, to see how powerful it would be...

36 HD means 72 feet tall. Given that the listed height range for that monster is somewhere between 197 feet (98 HD ) and 295 feet (147 HD ) I'd say your Hit Dice is a bit low. Of course I agree with you that such a monster would not go down to mere missiles, so I guess its a catch 22 in that regard.

I'm not sure about the CR, but he's far weaker than the tarrasque. The really high speed makes his lack of ranged attacks irrelevant, though, so he might be under-CR'd - what do you think? Still, I think he's in my intended CR 15-20 range.

One other thing I am wondering is can a monster with two legs actually have two stomp attacks in a round, I think I'd limit that to one.

I think the CR looks about right.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

36 HD means 72 feet tall. Given that the listed height range for that monster is somewhere between 197 feet (98 HD ) and 295 feet (147 HD ) I'd say your Hit Dice is a bit low. Of course I agree with you that such a monster would not go down to mere missiles, so I guess its a catch 22 in that regard.

Exactly... and that assumes a creature of normal density, to be both 500 tons and 197-295 feet tall, it has to be less than normal density.

One other thing I am wondering is can a monster with two legs actually have two stomp attacks in a round, I think I'd limit that to one.

True. I'll change that.

I think the CR looks about right.

OK, cool.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Titanic Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 100d20+1900 (2950 hit points)
Initiative: +13 (+5 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares), swim 80 ft.
Armor Class: 51 (-16 size, +5 Dex, +52 natural), touch -1, flat-footed 51
Base Attack/Grapple: +100/+141
Attack: Bite +108 melee (6d6+42/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +108 melee (6d6+42/19-20), 2 claws +105 melee (4d6+20), tail slap +106 melee (8d8+20/19-20)
Space/Reach: 225 ft./150 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease, feeding tubes, tail flail, tail smite, trample
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., DR 50/epic, fast healing 50, great leap, low-light vision, scent, shed parasites
Saves: Fort +71, Ref +57, Will +37
Abilities: Str 52, Dex 21, Con 49, Int 3, Wis 18, Cha 7
Skills: Jump +68, Listen +31, Spot +15, Survival +15, Swim +56
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite, tail), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite, tail), Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite, tail)
Epic Feats: Armor Skin, Devastating Critical (bite, tail), Improved Combat Reflexes, Overwhelming Critical (bite, tail), Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine), Superior Initiative
Divine Abilities: Divine Toughness, Heavy-Handed
Environment: Temperate aquatic and land???
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating:
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: -

Combat
Disease (Ex): Star chills, Fort DC 79, damage 1d8 Con drain. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Unlike normal diseases, star chills has an incubation period of 1 hour, and it deals damage every hour instead of every day. In addition, every time a Fortitude save against star chills fails by 5 or more (fails to beat DC 86), the period in which it deals damage decreases (to every 10 minutes, to every minute, and then to every round - star chills will never deal damage more than once per round.)

Feeding Tubes (Ex): Cloverfield may, as a standard action, make touch attacks to start a grapple against all creatures three or more sizes smaller than itself in or adjacent to its space, without provoking an attack of opportunity. In addition, whenever Cloverfield's trample damages a creature, Cloverfield automatically makes a grapple check against that creature, without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the grapple check succeeds, in the next round, Clover can make another grapple check to swallow the victim, or can expel the victim violently (causing the victim to fall 1d6+4x10 feet and take 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen). Expelling a victim is automatic and requires no check. Clover can make up to four grapple checks per round via its feeding tubes. Any successful grapple check made via its feeding tubes forces the opponent to make a Fortitude save (DC 91) or contract star chills.
A swallowed creature takes 4d6+42 bludgeoning and 21 acid damage and suffers 1d3 Str drain per round, and must save (Fort DC 79) each round or contract star chills. A swallowed creature can escape only by cutting its way out, dealing 250 points of damage to the interior of Cloverfield's stomach (AC 45).

Tail Flail (Ex): As a standard action, Clover can whip its tail in frenzied motions, smashing everything nearby. All creatures and unattended objects within 60 feet of Clover take 5d10+42 damage (Reflex DC 81 half). The save DC is Strength-based.

Tail Smite (Ex): As a full attack action, Clover can make a single mighty tail slap attack at its highest attack bonus (+110), dealing 10d10+63 damage.

Trample (Ex): 4d6+63 damage, Reflex half DC 81. The save DC is Strength-based. In addition, creatures of Huge or smaller size are also affected by feeding tubes when trampled, without requiring a touch attack.

Great Leap (Ex): Clover's jumps are always made as though it had a running start, even if it jumps from a standstill. Its jumps are not limited by its height.

Shed Parasites (Ex): When Clover takes damage, it releases one parasite for every [amount determined by parasite's CR] points of damage it takes (round down). Parasites appear in squares adjacent to Clover; if all these squares are full, the parasite appears in the nearest open square.


---
I downsized its HD some, and traded in some feats for the Divine Toughness and Heavy-Handed divine abilities.

I also gave it DR 50/epic and fast healing 50, and a "Tail Smite" ability to represent what it did to the bridge (a single concentrated smash). I think it should have fast healing and DR, but the amounts I gave it were arbitrary, what do you think they should be?

Does it look more balanced now?

 

[Belzamus]

Why not 50 (1/2 HD)? Isn't that usually the standard?

Anyway, I'd say he looks better. If you could just find a way to get his HP and AC higher, he could probably weigh in around CR 65 or so.

The problem really is is that he's likely not going to go first, so he needs to be able to survive a round, which, right now, he won't, I don't think.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Why not 50 (1/2 HD)? Isn't that usually the standard?

For natural AC, you mean? That was a mistake, actually. It should be 50, plus Armor Skin. I'll fix it.

Anyway, I'd say he looks better. If you could just find a way to get his HP and AC higher, he could probably weigh in around CR 65 or so.

Well, boosting HP's easy - Divine Toughness as an esoteric ability. AC, not so sure. It's only 53 now with the fixed natural armor - too low.

He should be about CR 50, I think UK said. Is anything about him too powerful for a CR50 creature? Star chills is really damaging, but healing it is trivial at that stage. Maybe it should just deal 1d8 Con drain/round, with the slower form reserved for the parasites?

Does fast healing 20 sound good? It's kind of low for a 2950 hp creature - would boosting it to 50 or 70 be too much?

Does Divine Toughness give you max hp, or just d20s for HD? I did the latter, is that correct?

The problem really is is that he's likely not going to go first, so he needs to be able to survive a round, which, right now, he won't, I don't think.

We could boost both his Initiative and AC by increasing his Dex, perhaps?

 

[Belzamus]

Nah, I mwant HD/2 for his DR and FH.

Divine Toughness has Perfect Toughness as a Prereq, which gives max hp per hd.

As for CR 50, his saves and DCs are a little high. Nothing else is too out of whack, though his AC is still a problem. But, at 50, Power Attacking isn't the instant-win button it is at higher levels, so it's not that bad.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Nah, I mwant HD/2 for his DR and FH.

OK, fixed that.

Divine Toughness has Perfect Toughness as a Prereq, which gives max hp per hd.[/quote]

OK, good, that'll boost Clover to 3900 hp.

As for CR 50, his saves and DCs are a little high. Nothing else is too out of whack, though his AC is still a problem. But, at 50, Power Attacking isn't the instant-win button it is at higher levels, so it's not that bad.

So should we try for ~50 as a target CR, then?