D&D (2024) Combing through the druid & paladin packet

[Maxperson]

I have seen divine sense detect something so few times, that adding a save will make this abilty almost useless…

I've never seen it used.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think so, even with the full mod, most paladins still focus on other aspects.

I do like that the Aura of Awe (or whatever it was called that dazed foes) gives them some decent incentive though.

Yeah. If it was 30 feet and not 10, I'd be incentivized to invest in charisma. The one time I played a paladin I ended up being the only one to be able to use the aura more often than not.

 

[Maxperson]

It's not hard at all. 1 5ft square per point of charisma mod minimum 1. Have 3 charisma & you get 5ft, 14 & you get 10ft, 16=15ft, 20=25. Wotc has yet to say that they intend to put bounded accuracy on a well deserved funeral pyre, things like the paladin's aura of effective save immunity can't exist alongside BA

Bounded accuracy was never intended to be a limit on player increases. It's simply that the DM side of things makes no assumption about what a PC's bonuses are. The paladin aura could give a bonus of +20 and it wouldn't violate bounded accuracy. Broken, yes. Violation, no.

"The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game that the player’s attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster’s hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character’s increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.

Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don’t have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.

This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level."

 

[tetrasodium]

Bounded accuracy was never intended to be a limit on player increases. It's simply that the DM side of things makes no assumption about what a PC's bonuses are. The paladin aura could give a bonus of +20 and it wouldn't violate bounded accuracy. Broken, yes. Violation, no.

"The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game that the player’s attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster’s hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character’s increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.

Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don’t have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.

This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level."

That's the problem, the PCs gain things they aren't expected to gain

 

[Bill Zebub]

I would argue they have gone too far with the Paladin though. You could honestly play an 8 cha Paladin from levels 1-6 (which could be an entire campaign for some players) and never miss it, just using spells for smites. That’s a problem to me.

I think you mean 1-5, because Aura kicks in at 6. (If not, please explain.). And trying to address that through Aura means that Cha still wouldn't matter until level 6.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think all classes should be more MAD. On the other hand, the reality is that only some of them actually are. So I can see the reasoning behind trying to minimize the effect for those that are.

How about this:

Divine Strength​

When making melee weapon attacks, you may use your Charisma modifier as your attack bonus. When you do so, each attack does additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.​

Now you can dump Str and just focus on Cha!

 

[Xamnam]

Honestly with what they did with 5e paladins, they should just remove spells and make smite a class ability. For the most part spells for paladins are just a little utility that is going to be used as a Smite 99.9999999% of the time. Make the class easier Take away spells, and give them level plus Charisma mod to use in smites. each point they put in a smite adds 1d8 damage. then they can burn it all fast or use it slow players choice.

With all respect, I really hope they don't go this direction. My paladin has never once used a spell slot on Divine Smite, but I'm regularly empty on them by the time a long rest rolls around.

 

[Pauln6]

I think you mean 1-5, because Aura kicks in at 6. (If not, please explain.). And trying to address that through Aura means that Cha still wouldn't matter until level 6.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think all classes should be more MAD. On the other hand, the reality is that only some of them actually are. So I can see the reasoning behind trying to minimize the effect for those that are.

How about this:

Divine Strength​

When making melee weapon attacks, you may use your Charisma modifier as your attack bonus. When you do so, each attack does additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.​

Now you can dump Str and just focus on Cha!

I think I made my saving throw against that suggestion.

 

[Bill Zebub]

With all respect, I really hope they don't go this direction. My paladin has never once used a spell slot on Divine Smite, but is regularly empty on them by the time a long rest rolls around.

I find that utterly bizarre, and I think it's freakin' awesome that some people play Paladins that way.

 

[Maxperson]

That's the problem, the PCs gain things they aren't expected to gain

That's a feature, not a problem. See magic weapons and armor. These bonuses are intended to be real bonuses and not treadmill bonuses.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's a feature, not a problem. See magic weapons and armor. These bonuses are intended to be real bonuses and not treadmill bonuses.

deliberately designing a problem doesn't prevent the problem from existing, nor does it help when the GM needs take responsibility for working around their inability to reward or challenge PCs as a result of that design

Urban Dictionary: It's not a bug, it's a feature

Excuse made by software developers when they try to convince the user that a flaw in their program is actually what it's supposed to be doing.

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working as designed | Definition of working as designed by Webster's Online Dictionary

Looking for definition of working as designed? working as designed explanation. Define working as designed by Webster's Dictionary, WordNet Lexical Database, Dictionary of Computing, Legal Dictionary, Medical Dictionary, Dream Dictionary.

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